Look through your notes from the recent round of Oral Papers.
Engage with ONE of the oral papers in one of the following ways:
1. Present a disagreeing rebuttal to the thesis, providing at least TWO items of textual evidence that support your rebuttal. (Provide chapter and verse for your rebutting evidence.)
2. Present a supportive response to the these, providing at least TWO additional items of textual evidence that bolster your support. (Provide chapter and verse for your supporting evidence.)
Please note: disagreeing with someone's thesis does not mean you thought their oral paper was weak or insufficient. It simply means you see things another way. In truth, a good thesis is one that a rational person can reasonably disagree with. So you needn't fret about hurting anyone's feelings.
Simply state your case - whether you disagree or agree and why (based on strong textual evidence).
Ready: go. DUE by 11:59 p.m. on Wednesday, Dec. 5th
Alex’s Animals in the Book of Job
ReplyDeleteI loved Alex’s commentary about the animals in the book of Job. Alex’s presentation gave us significant information about these animal life-forms, how God designed them, and how they relate to one another. Job shows how these higher animals relate to humans and how God gave each soulish animal unique capacities to serve and please humans in their own way. Ten specific animals are shown and how they helped in the launch of civilization and sustaining human life. There are several lessons that humans can learn from observing and relating to animals.
In Job 12 it says to look at the beasts and they Job teach an essential lessons. Here are some lessons we can learn from the animals:
1. Animals will do what they normally wouldn’t do in their natural habitat to please and serve humans. When we develop a powerful relationship with God we will rise to the occasion and achieve what we normally wouldn’t achieve
2. We were created to serve God, but sin caused us to run from God. Just like sin causes animals to run from humans.
3. Animals can form a strong bond with humans, we can form a strong bond with God.
Alex brought these important lessons to life in his presentation. It was enjoyable and entertaining. Great job.
Dom Oto
I really liked the presentation given by Alex, and not just because he shares my name. I had never considered the importance of animal figures in Job. The expansion of this thesis applies directly to the rest of the Bible. Animal symbolism is very common throughout the Old and New Testament alike. Throughout the new testament, Jesus was compared to a Lamb, like in Revelation 5:6 “Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain”. The comparison is used to highlight how Jesus was sent to earth to be the sacrificial lamb of God to save all of humankind. I think that breaking down the meanings of different animals would have been an excellent way to exemplify the purpose they serve for showing God’s power/sovereignty rather than simply pointing out that is what they do. There are still many verses in Job which have other animals and those could have been expanded upon to really drive home different aspects of God’s sovereignty. One example is Job 39:19-20 “Do you give the horse its strength or clothe its neck with a flowing mane? Do you make it leap like a locust, striking terror with its proud snorting?”. This example would serve to highlight the power and strength of God seeing as how horses typically represent this attribute (i.e. horsepower). Chapter 39 is full of animal imagery but there was actually no mention of that chapter at all. I think adding in this chapter would have really strengthened the argument and then other passages with less direct tie ins could have been removed.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed Alex's presentation. It was in relation to what I was trying to present as well. The representation of meaning that may be hidden. The animals that are present in the book of Job are very interesting to learn about. When God talks about them, he doesn't make them sound like these scary creatures you should be afraid of, but rather majestic and that's why you should be like them. Job 40:15 “Behold, Behemoth, which I made as I made you;he eats grass like an ox." God does not describe past events in relation to behemoth and leviathan, but instead talks about the appearance and habits of animals that were present. Therefore God is referring to animals that Job observed personally. Both animals are extraordinarily powerful and evoke awe.They symbolize the power of evil, connected with Satan, who is mentioned in the first chapters of the book. The words of God humbled Job and showed him that God is above all powers in this world. It also shows that animals have great significance in any story, especially if God is the one talking about them. He will talk about them like his own children and point out their majestic flaws and characteristics. He shows Job what he has created by creating an amazing, vividly image of the different animals and how they are amazing and suffer giving birth like the mountain goat. It kind of feels poetic in a sense. Why he chooses Behemoth and Leviathan, is a wonder. It is something you could expand on in your paper. Great presentation!
ReplyDelete-Kim Vi
I really liked Benjamin and Mason’s presentation. I had never thought that Job’s friends believed he was innocent, however the evidence they presented backed up their thesis. I think to add to their argument they could add Job 15:4 “Have you no fear of God, no reverence for him?”. This verse specifically mentions fearing God and could back up their thesis that the three friends were afraid of God’s wrath. The arguments that the three friends make seem harsh and mean, but the way Ben and Mason interpreted the story changes the emotion of the story. I think adding Job 15:4 helps prove that the three friends feared God and that is why they condemned Job, rather than condemning him for no good reason. Another way they could add on to their argument would be to add Elihu. Elihu just sort of shows up towards the end of Job but he has some profound words. During his argument Elihu praises God and I think this could be a representation of his fear. In Job 32:22 “For if I tried flattery, my Creator would soon destroy me,” Elihu shows restraint in the way he will argue because of his fear of being destroyed. Elihu seems to partially understand that no one can truly understand the reason of God. I think that Elihu defends God out of fear, just as the three friends condemn Job out of fear. I think Ben and Mason did a great job on this presentation!
ReplyDeleteCongratulations to the final group of oral presenters! Julie's presentation stuck out to me as one that was very explanatory and interesting. One piece of evidence that I would have added would be a bit more about the story of the Prodigal Son because it relates very well to her thesis about valuing money over people. In the story, the son says "Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me" (Luke 15:12). This money would normally be given as an inheritance once the father died. As my youth pastor once pointed out, the son is basically saying "Dad, I wish you were dead." Thus, the son values money more than his father. This ties in with Julie's thesis in that the son quickly realizes how much more valuable his father's love and care is than money. Overall, great job to Julie and to the other speakers.
ReplyDeleteBenjamin and Mason's oral paper was one that really stood out to me. I had never really thought about the fact that Job's friends could have thought he was completely innocent, but after hearing their presentation, I agree with them. Another quote from the book of Job that Benjamin and Mason could have included in their oral presentation to back themselves up could be Job 15:4 where it says, "Have you no fear of God, no reverence for him?" Another verse from the book of Job that shows my agreement with Benjamin and Mason and also supports their thesis could be Job 15:11. Here, it says, "Is God's comfort too little for you? Is his gentle word not enough?" Both of these verses I have listed help to support Benjamin and Mason's thesis about knowing Job was innocent deep down, but just making sure that they look good to God. Another verse that shows evidence of Job's friends wanting to look good to God is Job 15:12, "What has taken away your reason? What has weakened your vision, that you turn against God and say all these evil things?" Lastly, Job's friends try to stop him from talking about God's justice in Job 11:7 when Zophar says, "Can you solve the mysteries of God? Can you discover everything about the Almighty?" This is further proof of Job's friends' attempts to look good for God and their attempts to tell Job to never question God. The last round of oral presentations was awesome!
ReplyDeleteGreat job to everyone on their presentations. I really thought that Kimberly's oral paper was very thought provoking. The whole story is told about Job and his friends, but his wife is going through it as well. I agree with her argument that women are portrayed as having an important rule. I think there are two elements in the story that can help to reinforce her argument.
ReplyDeleteFirst, consider Job's wife. She is unnamed, and has only one line (Job 2:9). From the text we cannot really gather that much about her. At the start of the story, she and Job have had 10 children together, a miraculous feat in any time period. The story makes no mention of Job having any other wives or concubines. Due to Job 1:8 and Job 2:3 we know he is "blameless and upright" so we could surmise that she was his only wife. A wife who has already given birth to 10 children. The story progresses and at the end of it, God gives Job another 10 children. So this unnamed woman has given birth to 20 children, all of which we can assume would reach adulthood with the exception of divine intervention. This marvelous feat accomplished by her shows deep devotion, love, and an unimaginable strength.
The next point of note is about Job's last three daughters. Of his 20 children, only three were important enough to make a note of. Not even his wife, who gave birth to them, was named. Thought the old testament we see multiple situations where the importance of a name is displayed. Jacob being renamed Israel, Abram renamed Abraham, and the countless monuments built and named by the tribes to remember important events. Job's daughters get named because some quality they had outshone the rest of their siblings. If the author of Job had followed the precedent created by the other authors of the old testament, chances are the daughters would only be named in reference to their husband or mother. Like their mother, we do not really get much information about them except that they are the most beautiful in all the land (Job 42:15). So I believe that they are named to help remember their beauty.
Everyone has done a great job! I liked all the presentations. I like to comment on Benjamin and Masons's oral presentation because it is closely related to my presentation and has many lessons we can learn from their points regarding to perception God fairness, wisdom and justice. The story was exploring and touched details what many believers are dealing with even today so the dialogue and discourse Job and his friends had was very deep to Christians and others believers. The three Job's friends Bildad, Zophar and Eliphaz were failed to understand the secret of the situation while one of the Job's friend Elihu exactly directed them to the point. Yes, the three Job friends were knew Job was innocent and God feared person, but as soon as they found Job situations and suffering out of control, they began accusing job and his family because God is always fair and just. But, they failed to understand their is a Satan accuser who like to challenge God and saints relationships which Job was suffering for. Elihu saw the situation from different angles and understood better than the threes and tried to comfort Job and stop their accusations. He mentioned that God can test saints and his people and suggested it is better to be patient. This lesson and teach that we can trust God's wisdom and justice even when we cannot make sense of our experiences. Because we believe that God is wise, we can trust him to be just. When we challenged, with bad experiences, we should focus on the future God purpose rather than the cause of our suffering or experience.
ReplyDeleteBen and Mason did a wonderful job on their topic, as did everyone else. I thoroughly enjoyed this set of presentations for their interesting topics, perspectives and depth. Ben and Mason not only had a great topic, but did a great job of providing relatable analysis as to why the three friends did did what they did. The focus on this paper was to highlight the friends fear of God as to why they consistently were calling out their friend Job. The evidence made it clear, that the friends words were out of fear of God. I think one way to add to the supporting evidence is to add Elihu to the story line. The theme really explains how the fear of God dictates the actions of those involved with Job. While Elihu did not know Job and had supposedly more knowledge of God's, there is still examples of Elihu's natural fear of God. For example, in Job 32:22 the verse goes, "For if I tried Flattery, my Creator would soon destroy me." This is a blatant indicator that even Elihu has a natural fear of God. Another example goes back to the three friends blatant fear of God from Elihu's perspective. In Job 32:3, "he was also angry with Job's three friends , for they made God appear to be wrong by their inability to answer Job's arguments". As referenced as well in the first verse of chapter 32, Job's friends stopped responding to Job as he was "insisting on his innocence". Yet as Elihu talked, it became apparent that their talking was actually equally disrespectful to God. Therefore, them not talking could be another example of them fearing the retaliation of God after they realize Elihu's anger. This could be a situation where they realize they are digging themselves into a deeper hole with God, and would rather just stop digging. Overall this was a great discussion.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Benjamin and Mason’s argument. In support of their argument, Job 32:1 states that “So these three men ceased to answer Job because he was righteous in his own eyes.” The three friends had run out of accusations to make against Job and then were quiet. They knew that Job had done no wrong and was righteous, so their accusations were made up. When Job maintained his righteousness, they no longer had any ideas with which to attack his character.
ReplyDeleteAnother supporting passage is Job 18:21. Bildad is speaking to Job and lists horrors and sufferings and ends his list with “surely are the dwellings of the unrighteous, such is the place of him who knows not God.” He knows that Job knows God. All involved agree that God is allowing or causing Job’s suffering. By making this statement, Bildad is saying that these are the sufferings of someone who does not know God, and therefore do not belong to Job. He won’t say it blatantly for he fears God. However, he wants Job to know that he is supporting him, so he says this suffering belongs to someone else, not Job.
I very much enjoyed listening to Alex's presentation, it was worth the wait to hear his presentation and discuss the theme of animals in the Bible which is sometimes not focused on and largely overlooked. Dom's response to Alex's presentation hit home on many lessons that were instilled upon me from my grandparents. That we can always learn from animals, and people are the caretakers of God's creatures. While animals, are often misunderstood, they give us a look into the pureness of Gods creation. Thus why the animals all were saved from the flood in Genesis. "You are to bring into the ark two of all living creatures, male and female, to keep them alive with you. Two of every kind of bird, of every kind of animal and of every kind of creature that moves along the ground will come to you to be kept alive." (Genesis 6:19-21) Animals can be corrupted indirectly by the injustice of people towards them with stems from the sin in humanities hearts. Just like sin can corrupt people to act misunderstood in the eyes of other humans and only their hearts understood by God. It makes great sense that in Job the message can be understood by looking at the animals. Thank you for a great presentation Alex and semester looking at the Bible all!
ReplyDeleteI personally very much enjoyed listening to Kimberly's oral presentation. Her presentation certainly shed light on a totally different aspect I had not at all considered in the book of Job. Her argument was that "the personification of women and their significance is written all over the book." This is certainly true and I couldn't agree more after looking over the evidence she provided in her paper. While I do agree with her thesis, I think it is important to point out that different translations of the Bible shed light on this subject in a different way. For example, Kimberly pointed to Job 14:1-2 in her paper. In the NLT, this verse is worded as follows: "How frail is humanity! How short is life, how full of trouble! We blossom like a lower and then wither. Like a passing shadow, we quickly disappear." In this version of the bible, this verse does not mention women as it does in Kimberly's oral paper. Her verse reads, "Man who is born of a woman; is few of days and full of trouble. He comes out like a flower and withers; he flees like a shadow and continues not." Again, I agree with her thesis, however, some verses seem to conflict depending on the translation of the Bible. Finally, I very much like how Kimberly pointed out that Job's daughters were not named at the beginning of the book, but his new daughters at the end of the book were named. This statement held true with my NLT Bible. The verse reads, "He named his first daughter Jemimah, the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch." (Job 42:14) Overall great work!
ReplyDeleteAlthough Julie Martin made a compelling argument about how one of Jesus’ many messages was about how loving money the same as people is wrong, I feel as though she could have provided better supporting evidence. The parable of the Woman and the Coin is counted as a heavy point to her argument, although it is considered an exception to Martin’s thesis. However, she places the anecdote in an entirely different category from the story of the Lost Sheep, loving money and lost and found respectively, though they are often put together as having the same message; they are not about monetary worth but rather a metaphor for repentance. Both of these stories support this in their final sentences: “in the same way, there is more joy in heaven over one lost sinner who repents and returns to God than over ninety-nine others who are righteous and haven’t strayed away” (Luke 15:7); “In the same way, there is joy in the presence of God’s angels when even one sinner repents” (Luke 15:10). Clearly, both of these parables are about sinners coming to know God and not about money although items with monetary value are used in the metaphor as they would be easier concepts for Jesus’ audience to grasp.
ReplyDeleteI am also a critic of the wording Martin used for her evidence; she claims the support for her thesis as parables when not all of them are. For example, she delves into verses about the Pharisees and Zacchaeus, which is good evidence itself, however she titles them as parables when that is not the way that they are considered in the Bible. Although I understand what she was going for, I do not feel as though using a blanket statement for all of her supporting verses was the best idea.
-Micah Davis
After listening to everyone's presentation, I think Alex's argument was valid as well as interesting. I personally never thought about he relationships and symbolism of the animals in the bible. Just as Alex explained that the animals are used to reveal God's sovereignty I also think this could be done using metaphors and similes. This was shown several times in Revelation.
ReplyDeleteFor example, in the book of Revelation more specifically, REV 16:13 Lamb of God and Lion of the Tribe of Judah are two that nearly everyone accepts pertain to the Lord Jesus Himself.
Another example of using animals as symbolism would be the Lion. It's used through the bible to reference Jesus. There are about 120 references in the entire bible. It's used at least six times in Revelation. Starting with REV 4:7 describing the kingdom of the Lord. One of the four creatures surrounding the throne of God is a Lion. Which is described as a simile describing the Lion and God. Also, the Lamb of God is metaphoric reference seen throughout the book.
Connecting to Alex's thesis. Animals play a significant role in the bible which can also be shown through metaphors and similes.
I was very impressed with Alex's oral paper on Job. He brought up a really good argument with supporting evidence. I especially liked how he provided a description with the verse he chose. If I were to make suggestions to add to his paper, I would add part of Genesis when Joseph interprets Pharaoh's dream. "In his dream he saw seven fat, healthy cows come up out of the river and begin grazing on the marsh grass. Then he saw seven more cows come up behind them from the Nile, but these were scrawny and thin." Genesis 41: 2-3. The next evidence I would provide comes from the book of Jonah. "No one, not even animals from your herds and flocks, may eat or drink anything at all. People and animals alike must wear garments of mourning, and everyone must pray earnestly to God." Jonah 3:7. Both of these verses from different books also support Alex's thesis.
ReplyDeleteFollowing the presentations, I found Ben's and Mason's presentation the most interesting. When reading the story of Job, his friends do come off extremely self righteous which makes me believe that they're doing it more to please God and keep him off their back. Under the assumption that that people interpreted their prosperity and happiness based off of the perceived God's mood, its safe to say they saw bad things happening and tried to keep the God happy just in case those bad things happened to them as well.
ReplyDeleteBildad tries to separate himself from Job and his peers in Job 8:20 when he says “Behold, God will not reject a blameless man, nor take the hand of evildoers." He elevates himself to being blameless and essentially tells Job to get like him, who God has found favor in my not hurting. Another verse by Eliphaz which states that Job's turmoil will not end until he repents and shows remorse and repentence is Job 22:5 where he states "Is not your evil abundant? There is no end to your iniquities." My assumption would be that Job's friends are as well off as he is and because they have given money to the poor and widows, their family is kind and without sin, they must too be righteous. They compare their lives to him and assume that their actions result in God's happiness, thereby saying that Job's inactions are causing the suffering.
After hearing this round of presentations I found Alex's to be the most interesting. I never really thought of the key to understanding Job being the animals, the land and sea animals but also I found it interesting that someone mentioned theres not an animal of the sky which I never really considered. I always thought that God helped Job to understand why he was punishing him by asking him all the questions in 40:9 when he said "are you as strong as God? can you thunder with a voice like his". He is asking Job a ton of questions to show him how hard it is to be God. He then points out the creatures and shows how he created them just like he created Job. Job questions God many times and when God answers, he asks Job tons of questions like 38:5 "Who determined its dimensions and stretched out the surveying line". God is asking all of these to prove a point and he ends it with introducing Behemoth and Leviathan, which is why i always thought of them as just something he put it to further Job's understanding but after hearing Alex's paper i thought that could be a possible theory on why they were put there.
ReplyDeleteI think Kim’s paper did a great job highlighting the female presence in the seemingly male-dominated book of Job, but to invert her argument slightly I think it can be said that the consistent mentioning of birth as a token to women doesn’t necessarily champion their importance, but is also a repeated reference to their utility - suggesting their value/identity rests in their function. Viewing it this way aligns more tightly with the actual depictions of women in the bible – where their characterization and value is often deeply intertwined with either their fertility and/or beauty. In Job, few other qualities of women are mentioned outside of childbirth, one of which (that isn’t very positive) is Job’s reference to speaking “as one of the foolish women would speak” (Job 2:10). A similar sort of female “parameter” is shown at the end, where Job’s daughters’ (now named) only described quality is their beauty, (Job 42:15) which persists as an objectification tool. This isn’t a new trend though, and I still agree that the book of Job works to evoke the power associated with bringing forth life in a really poetic way, so this presentation was super refreshing to hear, great job!
ReplyDeleteBen and Mason's argument was super interesting. Even though I totally see why they thought this, I completely disagree. I think they knew he was innocent the whole time, but their knowledge of the character of God was limited so they couldn't understand why this was happening. However, Job knew this character more than any of them, so he was able to know that he wasn't doing anything wrong, but that it was something supernatural. "and they sat with him on the ground seven days and seven night, and no one spoke a word to him, for they saw that his suffering was very great." -Job 2:13 From this we see that they knew he was indeed a victim and mourned with him out of his innocence, not because of his negative actions that caused this. Secondly, the friends for sure didn't take his side the whole time. With time their faith wavered, and they did not have the capacity to know the character that is God the way that Job did. In chapter 16 verse 20 Job is very clear to say that his friends SCORN him. They truly do not have clarity of the situation that Ben and Mason argue. As the situation progresses, they lose sight and get confused.
ReplyDeleteGood job to all who presented this final round! For this last forum, I would like to respond to Alex's presentation about how God uses animals to reveal his sovereignty. I think this argument could be expanded to the entirety of the Bible as well. There are clearly many other examples that support Alex's thesis. For example, a very important one is seen in the first Passover when God commands the Israelites to slaughter a lamb or goat. The verse says "Announce to the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day of this month each family must choose a lamb or a young goat for a sacrifice, one animal for each household" (Exodus 12:3). The Passover also utilizes the animal's blood as a way of showing God who to spare, thus displaying his power through the command to use this animal in certain ways. Another example can be found all the way back in Genesis. When God commands Abraham to sacrifice Isaac as a test and then stops him, he provides a ram as a substitution. The verse reads, "Then Abraham looked up and saw a ram caught by its horn in a thicket. So he took the ram and sacrificed it as a burnt offering in place of his son" (Genesis 22:13). Animals are always used in the Bible as a way of displaying God's power to His people.
ReplyDeleteI think that all of the presentations lask week were very well done. I enjoyed Gianna and Sydney's presentation on the usage of water as a mirror for the structure of John and Revelation. The pattern that they noticed was celebration, healing, water, healing, and celebration. I thought that the case for John was well-defined, but that Revelation 22:3-5 could have been added to complete the pattern. This passage talks about God's servants worshipping him and since worship is celebrating who God is and what he has done, I think this could have been a ince addition to complete the series in Revelation.
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed listening to Alex’s presentation. I think that Alex did a phenomenal job not only getting his point across but giving the class as a whole a different context to read Job as. Throughout his presentation he had substantial evidence that made it easy to follow only and understand what his argument was. In order to strengthen his argument, he could add almost any line out of Job 12. Throughout this chapter there are many examples that could go right along with what was presented in class. A second area of information that could go along with his information is located back in Genesis. They way that animals are described throughout the end of Genesis could show a linkage between the two books like we had talked about in class. All in all, I think that Alex did a great job on his presentation, and if it would not have been for his presentation, this is something that I would never have thought about.
ReplyDeleteOne oral presentation that I found particularly interesting was Benjamin and Mason’s oral presentation about Job. I agree that Job’s friends acted out of fear of displeasing God rather than belief that Job was actually guilty. I think that one thing Benjamin and Mason could have added to their argument to strengthen it is the fact the Job’s friends accusations become stronger and harsher as the book progresses. The friends start off by giving Job advice (chapters 4-14) and suggesting repentance. However, by the end the friends are accusing Job of terrible things such as sending away widows empty handed and refusing water for the thirsty (Job 22:7-9). If Job’s friends had truly thought he had done any of the things they accuse him of, they would have started out by saying those things and not started out by giving advice. The escalation shows their growing fear of God’s punishment the more Job denies ever doing wrong. Another piece of evidence that they could have included in their argument is in Job 15:6 when Eliphaz states “Your own mouth condemns you, not I. You're own lips testify against you.” This hints that Eliphaz feels bad accusing Job because he knows Job is innocent, so he is twisting Job’s own words as self-accusation. By doing this, Eliphaz is still stating that Job is in the wrong (in order to stay on God’s “good” side) while also avoiding being the sole accuser. This shows Eliphaz’s fear of suffering like Job is suffering, even though he believes Job is innocent. Overall, I found this argument to be very convincing and compelling.
ReplyDeleteI loved Kim Vi's argument about the feminine symbolism in Job! The book of Job is, naturally, very Job-centric despite his wife being at his side this entire time. Yet his entire lamentation and praise surrounds his personal thoughts and feelings, and the only time we see his wife's point of view is in 2:9-10 when she tells him to curse God and die and he rebukes her and calls her foolish. But then Job goes on about his situation as if he were a woman suffering the pain of child birth which is an experience only his wife truly understands. I think it would have been significant to include this in Kim's argument because it is entirely symbolic of the inconclusive conclusion to Job that people on earth will never truly understand God and his reasoning just like Job will never truly understand child birth. He could break his leg in half, but the pain is instant and sharp and slowly dies, meanwhile childbirth (at lease I will assume as someone who's never given birth but could give birth to a kid years in the distant future), the pain is slow and then intensifies and intensifies even more and then even more and more until the kid is out of the womb. In the book of Job it seems like his leg fractures a bit and then snaps in half seconds later. It reads like it all happened almost at once and that's not at all like childbirth.
ReplyDelete-Emily Geary