This question of free will versus destiny is one that many people continue to ask today - though perhaps with different terminology and a different purpose - and the ensuing discussion often ends up arriving nowhere, caught in a cycle that can be difficult to detangle. These discussions are probably worth having, but for the sake of this discussion space, I'd like you to reflect on these topics only as they pertain to The Odyssey. To what extent do the gods control the destiny of human beings? To what extent (if at all) do human beings control their own destiny? To what extent do gods control the destiny of other gods (begging the question of who, if anyone, is actually in charge of things)?
Certainly Odysseus is an easy target in this discussion since his interaction with the gods is often painfully apparent throughout the text. But I'd like you to set Odysseus aside and instead focus on another character, commenting on that person's relationship and interaction with the gods, being careful to note specific references to personal agency, divine intervention, and the like. Make special note of references that might seem to contradict one another, offering a theory about how the two can co-exist peacefully in the text. In the end, what observations and conclusions (if any) can we as readers draw about the intersection of humanity and divinity in The Odyssey?
Remember: your comments MUST include pertinent book and line references and must be posted by midnight, 09.05.
The question of free will and the relationship between man and the gods is a question that is just as pertinent now as when The Odyssey was first told. Within the novel there are many clues that can lead the reader to lean one way or the other, but I believe that man has free will, and that the gods also have their own degree of free will within their own world. My decision on whether free will was present in the lives of men was made clear within the first few lines; “Ah, how shameless-the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries…[men] compound their pains beyond their share” (1.37). Zeus goes on to describe how the gods warned Aegisthus that murdering Agamemnon would only lead to his own demise. Why would the gods be mad that the men blame them if they had control of everyone’s destiny? In the case of Agamemnon’s death, Hermes warned that only bad things would follow. From this it seems to me that the gods have knowledge of past, present, and future and simply try to influence the decisions people made. Aegisthus had the warning, but used his free will to make the decision to continue with the affair and murder. The same influence from man to god can be seen in several cases throughout The Odyssey.
ReplyDeleteWithin the gods community I feel there is still that degree of free will. There are a lot of mirrors between the gods and man( affairs, marriage, deformity, exile) with the gods having a few extra powers ranking them higher in the social pyramid. I don’t really see one god having absolute power over the other. Zeus and Poseidon seem to be equal in rank, and they never come right out and have an epic battle over who rules. It’s more like behind-the-back petty games. If there is no out-right leader then how can there be one god with supreme will over everyone and everything else. In the relationship between Athena and Zeus he clearly gives her the free will to influence for the good or bad in Telemachus’ case. Zeus tells her, “…wasn’t the plan all your own?...the power is yours…” (5.27-30). Athena has the power to make her own decisions. In the case of man or god, free will is present, but there is a degree of influence to sway decisions.
I think to the extent that this, the gods are able to control humans destiny, not saying that they do but it is a possibility. For instance Pallas Athena, going and planting the thought in Telemachus that his father Odysseus is still alive and is trouting a return to his home land. "While myself go down to Ithaca, rouse his son to a braver pitch, inspire his heart with courage to summon",ect...(1,104-06). "Next I will sent him off to Sparta and sandy Pylos, there to learn of his dear fathers journey home." Right their Athena is in the drivers seat, with Telemachus' destiny. She wants to arouse him and she also said, Next I will send him off. I also think that "Free will" plays a role in this type of controlling destiny.
ReplyDeleteThe question, To what extent do humans control their own destiny. Is a likely point as well, look at Penelope, she has not seen her husband in 16 yrs. That is some control, she was left with child in arms and now is being confronted by suitors in her husbands palace every waking moment (someone wanting her for their wife). She is playing every thought that she can conceive to stay loyal to her great husband. "How I long for my husband- alive in memory, always that great mans whose fame resounds,ect..." (1,143-44). " Suitors plague my mother- against her will- son of the very men who are your finest here!" (2,154-55). So Penelope is having issues but she has "so far" remained faith to her husband. Which leads me to believing that the human has control over their destiny. Note: " So we will devour your worldly goods and wealth as long as she holds out, hold to that course the gods have charted deep inside her heart." Ulterior motive? Or contradiction, or just factors that are outside of human control.
Lastly, To what extent do gods control the destiny of other gods? Yes, this god thing is a powerful thought, for the most part the gods should get along on their "astroplane" But if one god doesn't get along with the other gods is that controlling destiny? No. "How can he stand his ground against the will of all the gods at once- one god alone?" (1,94-5). I don't think the thought would be to control the other gods destiny here, but something more gruesomer.
Closing, the intersection of humanity and divinity in the "Odyssey" seems a little confused, like maybe it is reality. I can't say enough or I don't believe so therefore my thoughts and my words are inconclusive. Is the feeling I get from this reading and author.
The society of this time worships several gods, and these gods themselves appear to be actively involved in mortal's lives. Sometimes the gods make themselves known to the mortals, and other times their influence is more secretive. Do the humans have a choice when it comes to their path of life, or is it chosen for them? And why must the god's interfere?
ReplyDeleteGoddess Athena takes a special interest in Telemachus. He has been without a father figure throughout his young life, and appears to be in need of guidance. Athena, wanting to help Odysseus, first encourages his son Telemachus in the right direction. Athena first asks her father, the "high and mighty king Zeus" (80. 97), if Odysseus's return home would please the gods (80. 98). It appears as though there is a hierarchy of importance in the gods' world. Zeus also gives his daughter a choice when he tells her "start from where you will-sing for our time now" (77. 12). Even though Athena is a goddess and has power, she seems to be bound by this hierarchy. And even though bound, she is given a choice of where to start. She chooses to start with Telemachus. Since Athena appears to Telemachus in disguise, it is as though she wants him to make the right decision on his own. She plays an encouraging role, and does not directly make things happen for him. If free will were not important, she would just make things happen like she alters Odysseus's appearance (175. 253). And even when she directly makes changes to humans' lives, she only alters one aspect at a time. She does not play every hand at once, but allows for the opportunity for changes and choices to be made.
The gods themselves are not all knowing and powerful. Gods send messengers to pass along information and orders, like Zeus did with his son Hermes (153. 34). If gods were all knowing there would be no need for a messenger, and if gods were all powerful there would be no need for the message to be sent.
I believe that Alex Baker made a valid observation from the opening of the book about when Zeus said, "...-the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone,..., come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share" (78. 37). The "high and mighty king Zeus" acknowledges that mortals have a choice. If miseries do come from the gods, but are only made worse by mortals themselves, then maybe the miseries are put into place as a challenge for them to overcome.
I believe that the gods have free will, and so do the mortals. The gods influence people's lives to a certain degree, but the aspect of choice still exists for humans. People choose what to do with what they are given.
I don't think that the gods care one iota about destiny. Nemesis, perhaps, and maybe even merit, accomplishment, or courage give the gods are reason to interfere (maybe actively spectate is a better word) with the short, mundane lives of men. Every so once in a while they tune in to the events surrounding people like Odysseus--boisterous, brave, and offensive.
ReplyDeleteOne of my favorite parts of the book is in chapter one when Athena pleads with Zeus to spare Odysseus from his exile. "Olympian Zeus, have you no care for him in your lofty heart?...Why, Zeus, why so dead set against Odysseus?" Zeus replies, "Now, how on earth could I forget Odysseus?" (79.71-78) I believe that this scene can be interpreted as Zeus actually had forgotten Odysseus and just didn't want to admit it or he only chose to start caring again because of his daughters pleading. Zeus may have actually forgotten about the most interesting mortal on the planet.
To answer the question of the existence of free will in Odysseus, and determine just how much the gods care about fate--one need only look to Menelaus. Stranded on the beach, food stores dwindling and no wind for weeks, Menelaus became suspect of the gods. He had offended them without actually realizing he had done so. Eidothea takes pity on him or simply gets tired of watching him struggle does she give him some helpful advice. He needs to wrestle a powerful wizard-god that counts seals to find out how to free himself and, consequently. avoid starvation.
In the Odyssey, "[i]t's hard for a mortal man to force a god." (137.444), but not impossible. So Menelaus and his chosen men disguise themselves as seals, Proteus counts to ten, and, in the end, Menelaus finds out that he forgot to do a ritual he didn't know he had to and has to backtrack a long. It appears the gods are more worried about respect and ritual sacrifice than they are of anyone's "destiny". Men can take their destiny into their own hands and even force the will of the gods. In some cases, people are left in precarious situations and forgotten by the gods, so it is in his/her best interest to exercise free will.
Relationships and the controlling of mortal destinies in the Odyssey I would say is best described as inconsistent. There are many cases where a mortal makes his own destiny, and Sarah points out when Zeus even states for a fact the mortals on occasion make their own destiny.
ReplyDelete"...-the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone... come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share" (page 78 line 37)
To reiterate, humans blame the gods for more than what is actually their fault. If some fault is found in the mortal from the gods perspective, that must mean the gods give them some free will in their choices.
But many times do the gods show up and control the present, or the future. In the instance of King Menelaus and Protues the immortal Man of the Sea, Proteus narrates to Menelaus the actions and the wills of the gods meaning no matter what the mortals did, their destiny is decided for them.
"You should have offered Zeus and the other gods a handsome sacrifice, then embarked, if you ever hoped for a rapid journey home across the wine dark sea. It's not your destiny to see your loved ones,... make a splendid rite to the deathless gods who rule the vaulting skies. Then, only then will the gods grant you the voyage you desire." (page 139 lines 525-530)
Proteus talks about the gods "granting" the voyage home, which is 100% completely a factor of agency.
In other instances, the outcome is unclear whether or not the gods are in control of one's destiny. Athena talking to Odysseus about Telemachus; "No need for anguish, trust me not for him-- I escorted your son myself... some young lords in a black cutter lurk in ambush, poised to kill the prince before he reaches home, but I have my doubts they will." Now if I were Odysseus I would say hold on, you just have your doubts? What percentage is that, like 50? It sounds like Athena doesn't have full control over the situation. This to me is a large gray area between agency and free will in the book, and is very interesting to me. I look forward to seeing if Telemachus makes it home and how much if any interference Athena provides, and also whether or not she disguises herself during the action.
Overall, the appearances of agency and free will are both abundant in the text, sometimes coming out by themselves, and sometimes showing up intertwining together. There is no right or wrong answer as to whether or not the gods control the destiny of characters in the text, the reader makes his or her own decision. Much like the whole idea of faith and believing in a higher power, each individual gets to make their own decision about what they believe or believe in.
I think that the gods are puppet masters, controlling what they want or do not want to happen. Humans do have some free will, but if a god would rather have that particular human do something else then what is to stop that god from locking them in their magical cave to be their sex puppet for eight years? Or turning characters into pigs?
ReplyDeleteTake the character of Nausicaa of example, the only reason she got involved with the story of Odysseus is because Athena, a GODESS told her it would be a great idea to go wash her clothes in the river. (Disguised, the bright-eyed goddess chided, Nausicaa, how could your mother bare a careless girl like you? Look at your fine clothes, lying here negelected- with your marriage not far off....... come let's go wash these clothes at the break of day..... it's so much nicer for you to ride than go on foot. The washing-pools are just too far from town." (6.27-44)
If Athena had not gotten involved then who knows how Nausicaa would have spent her day. I think the gods pick and choose when and why they help humans and enjoy sitting up above watching their helpless, human pawns.
The question of free-will can come into play when you are talking about multiple concepts. Free-will meaning an individual has a free and independent choice to do something. People who have certain beliefs sometimes question if we make our own decisions or if others that have a higher power, such as a god, make them for us. In the story the Odyssey there are multiple instances when you can question if the mortals are making decisions for themselves or if the gods are having control over their every move and destiny.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading the book I believe that I still have a hard time deciding how much the gods have control over humans and their destiny. In the very beginning of the story it starts off by Zeus talking about all of the survivors who avoided death and were safe at home. (1.13) When I read this it stood out to me by hearing the word “avoided”. It made me feel that these survivors that are being mentioned controlled themselves by whatever they did to survive. The gods could have possibly put disaster in their way that could have given them the option to die but they themselves were strong enough to make it through the journey to make it safely home. A second instance that I believe shows that gods do not have full control over humans as much as they would like to have. In book nine, Odysseus goes against the Cyclops and stabs him in the eye to blind him. You hear multiple times throughout the book that Poseidon does not like Odysseus because he blinded his son, Polypheums. If Poseidon, as a god, had the power, I feel that he would have taken revenge on Odysseus already and would not have allowed him to travel this far. The other side can be argued when Zeus tells Athena to take control of Odysseus and Telemachus in book five. Zeus tells Athena to use the plan that she conceived herself to sail Telemachus home with her own skill. (5.24) If this is true, then it seems that the gods have plans for humans and that it is with their choice to fulfill their plans to the extent that they want them to succeed.
However, when you talk about gods having control, the question is brought up that if the gods possibly control humans, do the gods have any control over any of the other gods? In the beginning of book five you hear Zeus mentioned as “Zeus the thunder king whose power rules the world.” (5.3) If Zeus had power over the world then he should be in charge of other gods and goddesses. Throughout the book Zeus always gets brought up when they talk about Odysseus and him surviving and making it through all his hardships and battles, but you do not hear much mention come into play of Zeus or any of the other gods being punished by another god. The question if some gods have some control though can come into question when it comes to their family. Hermes, being the son of Zeus, is the messenger as stated in book five but I have not been able to fully decide if it is control that Zeus has by making Hermes a messenger or if he is him as a father having control over his son. (5.32)
Throughout the book I have changed my beliefs multiple times in believing if the gods have full power or not. Many situations have me believing that this journey seems too rough for one individual, such as Odysseus, to handle by himself but then again many times through listening to the power the gods have I questioned if he really did do it himself depending on how strong of a man he is. I still have yet to decide if the gods have full power over humans and if Zeus is the all-mighty god or if gods have equal share and can go against each other.
It’s shown throughout the text that the gods have a lot of power and use that power in the lives of the humans; however, there are moments that it appears the humans have some sort of free will in their lives, at least to some extent. In one instance, Athena is talking with Telemachus giving him instructions on his journey to discover news about Odysseus. She states, “For you, I have some good advice, if only you will accept it.” (1-320) This shows that Telemachus had a choice to follow the advice and instructions from Athena or to choose his own plans to follow. She puts it out there for him to receive or walk away from, but it was ultimately up to him whether or not to follow her path.
ReplyDeleteThere’s a differing concept of the control of the gods shown in several places throughout the text though. Telemachus talks to the suitors about their behavior in Book 1 and says, “But I’ll cry out to the everlasting gods in hope that Zeus will pay you back with a vengeance—all of you destroyed in my house while I go scot-free myself!” (1-335) “In the hope that Zeus will pay you back…” implies that Zeus has the control of whether or not to hear the prayers of Telemachus and to make his own decisions for what happens to the human beings. Telemachus can put in his request and his belief of what should happen, but Zeus would be the one to decide whether he grants his wish or not. Also in Book 2, Athena lays out the plan before Telemachus and gives him a little word of encouragement to go forth and speak to the people in his town. In line 412 Telemachus says, “There’s a god who made this plan.” Here the text reveals the plan and destiny that the gods have for the human beings, and it appears that Telemachus has that destiny from Athena.
So I believe, through what I’ve gathered from the text and the situations that have risen in each scene, that it’s a combination between free will and destiny for the mortals. At times the gods appear to be in complete control, doing as they wish to the humans, but other times reveal the humans being able to follow their own plans and desires despite the gods. Sometimes it seems to me that there is free will for the humans, but they have this when it will end in destruction. So the gods either have complete control and destiny rules the lives of the mortals or destruction from their free will occurs, but either way the gods know what’s going on.
Throughout The Odyssey, gods and humans are put in difficult situations and someone is to determine their fate; I believe that the gods have the power to help the humans but their human-like characteristics stop them from doing so. In book 1, during an assembly in Zeus’ home, the gods were discussing how Orestes killed Aegisthus. Zeus states “Ah how shameless- the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share…” (1, 37-40). Zeus admits that the gods have the power to put misery or joy in their pathway, but humans make things worse for themselves by disobeying the gods. In a few lines down in book 1, Zeus tells the other gods that Hermes warned Orestes not to kill Aegisthus or “court his wife” (1, 46). Orestes was warned by the gods of the things he should not do, but he had the choice to disobey and he did. Human beings have the power to control their own destiny through the option of choice. The gods cannot control how the humans react, but the gods can attempt to influence their decisions. The gods cannot control the reaction of humans, and they cannot control the response of other gods.
ReplyDeleteA god has the power to do as he chooses. In book 5, Athena asks Zeus to let Odysseus come home and Zeus says “Come now, wasn’t the plan your own… the power is yours, no doubt…” (5, 27-29). Athena felt that she needed permission to bring Odysseus back to Ithaca, but Zeus confronts her by telling her that she has had the power all along; this happens again in book 13. Poseidon states that if he does not do something to punish the Phaeacians that he will no longer be respected by mortals. Zeus says “The power is always yours. Do what you like. Whatever warms your heart” (13, 168-69). The gods ask Zeus if they have permission to do something and he reinforces the fact that they have had the power all along. This leads me to believe that the gods have more control than they believe they actually have; this leads me to question who is actually in control?
Two gods asked Zeus for permission to bring someone home or punish someone. At one point Poseidon states “but I’ve always feared your wrath and shied away” (13, 168) when he asked Zeus if he could punish the Phaeacians. I cannot tell if the gods fear Zeus because he is in charge or if it is because Poseidon is the brother of and Athena is the daughter of Zeus. The gods can punish each other and go against each other in many different scenarios throughout the book. In book 10, Odysseus is walking to save his men from Circe, and he runs into Hermes. Hermes gives Odysseus the power to basically disarm Circe’s power; this is just one example of where the gods go against each other.
The gods can choose to go against each other, they can choose to help humans, and they can choose to punish the humans. There does not seem to be one specific god that is in charge, and it is difficult to determine who determines the human’s fate, but I think that the gods have more power than they believe they do.
The gods in The Odyssey all have something interesting and unique about them. Some are the defiant and trouble making ones, like Poseidon, and some spend nearly the entire story trying to help people in any way they can (Athena as a prime example). Either way when it comes this book, it makes humans and all creatures for that matter out to be puppets to almost every will of the gods and makes their stories seem to be all of the gods with none of their own choosing, such as when Zeus is talking to his daughter about all of her interactions with Telemachus and Odysseus and says "wasn't the plan all your own? You conceived it yourself" (5.26). And even though other creatures may say that gods mean nothing to them (Polyphemus stating to Odysseus that "We Cyclops never blink at Zeus and Zeus's shield of storm and thunder, or any other blessed god" (9.309)), we still see interactions with all creatures of the story and the gods.
ReplyDeleteNow I do say 'almost' with exaggeration, meaning that I don't believe the gods are all controlling of the humans every second of every day. It seems that they are as controlling as they want to be, and when they want to be. Only when things don't seem to be going their way is when we see divine interaction, whether that be something big that a god or goddess does, or something a little less obvious, like when Odysseus was about to give his speech to the Phaeacians, Athena "lavished a marvelous splendor, making him taller, more massive to all eyes, so Phaeacians might regard the man with kindness" (6.21). But when they are pleased with their work, they let the humans go on with their lives and stories, giving them that free will until the gods feel they have something else they need to take care of.
As for the gods between themselves, I think all besides for Zeus are equal with each other, and they seem to understand this fairly well. Gods will go against other gods numerous times in the story, but so far none have gone directly against Zeus, the kind of father figure to all of the gods, the one whose opinion and action is always final. So all in all, even though humans and creatures are all puppets to the gods, even the gods have someone watching over them and advising them, and even controlling them if Zeus himself doesn't like their decision. Now as for someone watching over Zeus, maybe that's getting too deep but thats the question that I'd like an answered.
In regard to Gods and religion, free will has always been an existing question, either in discussion or argument form. As advanced and intelligent human beings, free will has been discussed in many ways, with many arguments and ideas to back up the opinion. And while these discussions become more developed as time goes on and as technology and understanding of our world advance, I think we forget that these same questions and ideas were talked about many many years ago. For instance, the epic tale, "The Odyssey", while written centuries ago focuses on the same ideas and arguments that we still bring up today, particularly on the idea of free will. Being focussed on Greek Mythology Homer's "The Odyssey" is a tale of Gods, Goddesses, mortals, and creatures and throughout the story we are pushed to question whether or not the Gods actually have an influence on the outcome of events for each character. And as I have been reading, I believe that the mortals in "The Odyssey" have free will, but the God's are in some position to bend and twist that free will, sometimes for their own entertainment, and sometimes for future events to come.
ReplyDeleteAn example in the text of a time when the Gods along with man are responsible for their own free will and destiny states, "Ah how shameless-the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share" (1:37-40). This quote, as the first spoken example of free will and agency in the tale shows that while the Gods do have control over the lives of the mortals, they are often blamed for all of the misfortunes of the mortals, where as the Gods feel that the mortals bring some of the misfortune upon themselves, showing the duel control of ones own free will. This quote, while early on, proves to be a strong theme throughout the text as Odysseus and Telemachus are helped by many Gods such as, Ino, Athena, Calypso, and Zeus (in a round about way-through Athena).
As for Athena and her willingness to help Odysseus and his family, her motives are shown through her multiple appearances to give advice to not only Telemachus but Odysseus and Penelope as well. In book 7 she is said to have "enchanted mist around him, harboring kindness for Odysseus in her heart" (7: 47-48). This being just one example of when she uses her Godly powers to help the mortal.
An extended idea of Athena using her power to help mortals is the idea that the God's have their own "free will" between them. An example to negate this idea would be in book five when Zeus states in regard to Poseidon, "how can he stand his ground against the will of all the gods at once-one god alone? (1:94-94). This quote seems to suggest that the will of multiple Gods can out force the will of one God alone, no matter how powerful that God may be. As for Zeus, he may be known as the highest God in some literature, which also is somewhat apparent in "The Odyssey" for he makes the statement on Poseidon as well as sends Hermes to free Odysseus and deliver his message of his freedom to Calypso, as well as gives Athena permission to use her own judgment in regards to the Odysseus and his family.
In conclusion, "The Odyssey" provides many examples on whether or not the Gods are in control of the lives of the mortals. I feel that the rest of the tale will shed even more light than it already has, as well as bring new opinions and thoughts to our minds. However, as of now, I stand by my opinion that the Gods have control over the mortals in certain instances, whether those are necessary or not. As well as the will among the Gods themselves, I am still unsure about that.
Telemachus is a character that seems to have some free agency as a character and so does the Goddess Athena. I see the relationship between the two of them, Telemachus and Athena, as extremely complimentary. The way that Athena guides Telemachus and urges him to speak out against the suitors and it is also shown in the way that the code of conuct is performed. In Book One Athena follows Telemachus into his home(Book I Line 148). The roles switch when at the end of Book Two Line 448, Athena takes charge and Telemachus follows her lead instead. The compliment each other very well.
ReplyDeleteAnother point is that in Book One Line 37, Zeus is saying that mortals blame the Gods but that they themselves compopund the pain they feel. I see this as an extremely telling place on the idea of free agency and destiny. From these examples, I believe that the mortals have agency over themselves fully but feel like they do not since there are Gods that can help or encourage them along through their trials and tribulations. The Gods have influence over the mortals but I am not sure as to what extent the influence affects the destiny or the outcomes of a certain situation.
Thinking about whether or not the gods in The Odyssey have control over humans is a strange concept to me. I immediately want to say, "Of course they do. They're gods." That's definitely what I would've said if I hadn't thought too hard about it. After reading this text though, my opinion has changed.
ReplyDeleteI think with these gods, there is just a lot of inspiring that goes on, instead of just telling people what to do without giving them a choice. Athena is the biggest example in this book. So many times, she appears to people to inspire them to act like she does in book 1 when she appears to Telemachus for the first time(1.196-351). She also can calm people down by what she says or does like she does with Penelope in a dream(4.893). These gods (Athena especially) are just sort of there as back up.
I don't think the gods can actually force humans to do anything (and if they can, they don't take advantage of it very often), they just can sway people one way or the other by creating different circumstances.
The gods in this are not perfect and they hold grudges (for example: Poseidon). They cheat, they steal, they lie, and they play rough. Because they seem to be just like humans in that respect, I think they are just like humans in that they can't control each other either. For the most part, they listen to each other just out of respect for everyone's godliness. In book 5 (line 33) Zeus is bossing Hermes around but I feel like that's more of a father/son thing. One, Zeus is very powerful and could do a lot of harm if you don't do what he says, but two, Zeus is Hermes' dad so the consequences I'm sure would be worse if he disobeyed.
Saying all that, I still am not completely sure that the god's can't control one another or the humans. I guess there's no way to know for sure. However, through my reading, I feel they're more like gods that inspire or threaten than gods that make things happen by bossing people around like robots.
As humans, we often strive to be the best; even more often, we choose to believe we already are the best: smartest creatures on the planet, top of the food chain, nearly faultless. We also have issues accepting that some things are out of our control. It’s nearly unfathomable to us that an inhuman force such as nature can so easily defeat us, and so we create gods with which to explain away these natural phenomena; however, these gods are only responsible when advantageous. Humans want to take fame and glory for their own achievements; only when advantageous are the gods blamed or praised. The Greeks, perhaps, perfected the art of glorifying themselves through “glorifying” the gods.
ReplyDeleteIn the ultimate case of advantageous prayer, the Cyclops live in a farm community, far from human society, oblivious to Greek tradition. Upon Odysseus’ arrival, Polyphemus is appalled by Odysseus’ request for gifts as per the custom of the land. The giant Cyclops laughs and says, “you must be a fool…telling me to fear the gods or avoid their wrath!” (9, 307-308). The apparently lawless creature has no fear of the gods; he has no need to be. It almost seems that he is flaunting his power, his apparent lack of need for the gods’ intervention. However, as soon as the human army blinds his eye, escapes under the bellies of his rams, and flees the island, the beast prays to his father Poseidon, god of the sea (9, 584-595). As soon as Polyphemus loses control of the situation, he begs for his father to let hell reign down on Odysseus and his soldiers.
For the Greeks, I personally don’t think it was about free will and agency. I think they tried harder to shift the blame, ready to accuse the gods of causing their troubles, hesitant to believe they aren’t the masters of their own lives, refusing to believe they can’t make decisions for themselves. They remind of preschool: crying to Mommy when some other kid stole your toy, determined to steal the cookies, and never once believing your parents are manipulating you. The good things are your own doing; the bad thing, someone else’s plotted revenge.
A large theme in The Odyssey is concentrated on the gods intervention with the mortal characters and whether the gods determine ones destiny or if free will prevails over all. Free will can be described as the power to act without the constraint of necessity or fate, and the ability to act at one's own discretion. In many instances the novel contradicts itself because the characters make statements claiming they have no control over what the gods plan, while the gods have been quoted saying they are often unfairly blamed for characters actions. Examples of the god’s power over the people can be heard by Nestor in book three. He says “‘The minds of the everlasting gods don’t change so quickly” (112.163). The meaning behind this is it would be unwise to disagree with the gods and try to change your fate. An example for the opposing would come from Zeus, he says “Ah, how shameless- the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their plans beyond their proper share” (73.37-40). These contradicting views can complicate the book, yet further propel the readers curiosity. It makes one wonder whether the actions are caused because the gods wanted them to or if they are occurring due to happenstance.
ReplyDeleteIf a person in modern society were to fall upon misfortune, such as being robbed, they would consider it quite differently than someone from the Odyssey would. Nowadays, a person would consider it a bit of bad luck, or something that just happens. If a character from the Odyssey or from back in the ancient Greek era were to come upon such misfortune they would claim the happening as an influence from the gods, as most the characters do when things go awry.
In my opinion, the actions and events in the Odyssey are the result of both god influence/involvement and free will. Gods may have powers of persuasion and influence, but the characters possess the “ultimate” or last action. A character who was influenced by the gods was Nausicaa. Athena came to her in a dream in book six and planted ideas of going to the river. However, Athena did not force her into going to the river, as it was her own free will that brought her there. In the end, I believe the gods can plan and choose a route for the characters to follow, but it’s the person who has to walk the path.
What is free-will and what is not in The Odyssey? It is obvious that the gods control much of what is going on, and enjoy playing with the immortals daily lives. Can the reader believe anything that they read? Or do we just assume that everything is controlled by the gods? Personally, I would vote that there is no free will. Let's look at the most obvious example, Odysseus. If it weren't for Athena from the very beginning asking Zeus to "care for him in his lofty heart" (1. 73), Odysseus would still be stuck on Calypso's island. Another prime example is Telemachus. Athena appears to him as Mentor in Book Two, and urges him to "drive these suitors from your halls" (1. 313). If Athena hadn't appeared to him and inspired him, for all we know Telemachus would still be sulking in the corner waiting for his father to come back.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to the gods themselves, who is in charge? And do the gods have free-will themselves? We are taught to believe that Zeus, god of thunder, is the man that everyone answers to. But couldn't we argue that Poseidon has a lot of power? Homer seems to think he did. During Odysseus's entire journey, Poseidon is constantly controlling things and responsible for Odysseus's outcome. Zeus even admits that he is not the one running the entire show when he addresses how upset Poseidon would be if the gods helped Odysseus, "How can he stand his ground against the will of all the gods at once--one god alone?" (1.93) He doesn't say, "How can Poseidon stand against my will?", but instead says "How can he stand against all of our wills?". Some would say that Zeus is in charge because the gods come to him for advice. But, maybe the gods come to him because he's family and they just want to talk. Athena is his daughter and is possibly seeking her father's help. And when Poseidon comes to Zeus upset that the Phaeacians helped Odysseus home, Zeus says says Poseidon is the "oldest and noblest of all" and says the "power is always yours" (13. 160-170). Could Poseidon just be needing to talk to his brother instead of asking permission from the head god?
In conclusion, I would have to say that the immortals cannot control their own destiny's because of the gods, but the gods themselves can control their own destiny's from one another.
We have discussed and pointed out, in class, a few cases were person agency shines through in The Odyssey. There have been many examples where man and god appear to have free will, but just as many accounts where they seem to be at mercy to a higher god then themselves. I agree with Alex Baker when she cited the first few lines of the story; “Ah, how shameless-the way these mortals blame the gods” (1.37). All of the characters cast blame on the gods for anything that goes wrong or right. Telemachus blames the gods for the downfall of his father’s palace, “Now the gods have reversed our fortunes with a vengeance-wiped that man from the earth like no one else before “(1.272) and again when he says, “Now the gods have invented other miseries to plague me” (1.283). It appears that Telemachus feels that the gods are responsible for the way things are today in his life, his palace being overthrown by suitors and his father being dead, like there is nothing to be done, it is destiny. On the contrary though, if we look at the relationship between Telemachus and Pallas Athena, she seems to be guiding him and offering him advice, “For you, I have some good advice, if only you will accept it. (1.320). this gives the impression that Telemachus is control of his own actions while Athena advices him one way. If we look at the relationship between gods, it seems that certain gods hold the power for certain situations. In Book 5, one character who shows a moment of control is Pallas Athena. When she talks to Zeus about freeing Odysseus from goddess Calypso Zeus says, “What nonsense you let slip through your teeth. Come now, wasn’t the plan your own” (5. 25) this passages shows Athena having the upper hand to Zeus. Overall it is obvious that there is personal agency among the humans and gods but what needs to be argued is how much. I believe that each individual has control up to a point, and then fate will take a strong hold on the outcome
ReplyDeleteI feel that the question of free will is as popular today as it was in the time of The Odyssey. There are instances that could reflect no free will and that the gods rule everything, but there are also scenes that suggest otherwise. I personally believe that in characters in The Odyssey do have their own free will, although it oftentimes seems unlike it. In Book 1 we see the first occurrence of the gods speaking to and guiding the characters. Athena speaks to Telemachus to encourage him to take charge of his kingdom. “But you, I urge you, think how to drive these suitors from your halls. Come now listen closely. Take my words to heart. At daybreak summon the island’s lords to full assembly, give your orders to all and call the gods to witness: tell the suitors to scatter, each to his own place” (1.312). Athena does not make him do anything, just simply encourages and guides his way.
ReplyDeleteAthena also assists Penelope in book 4, as she is weeping about her son (4.893). She does not force Penelope to do anything, but guides her in a new path and light.
I also believe the characters have free will because of the relationship between Poseidon and Odysseus. There have been several instances where Poseidon has done something to hurt or kill Odysseus, but has not been successful. If he really was “all powerful,” Odysseus would be long gone.
It will be interesting to see how to gods’ power influences the rest of the book!
The question of whether the gods have control over each other as well as over mortal destiny is not easy to define. The question of whether gods and mortals can exhibit free will is also difficult to answer. There are many instances in The Odyssey that demonstrate the gods have some control over mortal destiny, but I do not believe the gods have complete control over the mortals. I believe the mortals, as well as the gods themselves, can both exhibit free will if they so choose.
ReplyDeleteIn the first book Zeus states, “Ah how shameless—the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (78, 37-40). These miseries the mortals suffer may come from the gods, but that’s not to say that the mortals cannot change the outcome. Take Aegisthus’ situation for an example; Hermes warned him that he would be avenged if he murdered Agamemnon and married his wife (78-79. 41-52). As we know, Aegisthus did not listen and he chose to do what Hermes advised him not to. Though the gods do influence control over the mortals, the mortals can use their own free will to do as they please.
The gods themselves are all very powerful, but I do not believe the gods exhibit control over one another. In the first book Telemachus questions his mother, “Why, mother…why deny our devoted bard the chance to entertain us any way the spirit stirs him on? Bards are not to blame—Zeus is to blame. He deals to each and every laborer on this earth whatever doom he pleases” (88-89. 396-402). Saying that Zeus, and only Zeus is to blame, is a little cruel. Telemachus’ quote makes it seem as if Zeus has all the power and all the control over the other gods, and that the mortals should look at him as the sole cause of their problems. Yes, Zeus is the father of the gods, but that is not to say he can control the other gods; the gods are equal, they work together.
I believe that the gods are also able to express free will. An example would be when Circe turns Odysseus’ men into swine. Turning the men into swine seemed like a form of entertainment for Circe; she lured the men into her palace, drugged them, and then turned them into swine (237. 259-263). It doesn’t seem as if this was something thoughtfully planned out by the goddess. It’s almost as if Circe did it just because she felt like it, which to me, is expressing her own free will.
From what I have seen thus far in The Odyssey, I believe that that the gods can influence one’s destiny and one’s actions, but overall, men possess free will to do whatever they wish to do. But before I go into my explanation, I believe a definition of free will is needed to avoid any confusion. To me, free will is the ability to make one’s decisions, with or without influence from an outside stimulus (person, circumstance, etc.) but the choice is still made by the person himself and the consequences from that decision affect their “destiny”.
ReplyDeleteThe character that comes to mind for me is Polyphemus, the Cyclops. It is obvious that his father, Poseidon, as well as the other gods care for him and the other Cyclops as their island is rich in growing crops even though they do not do any farming as it says “…who trust so to the everlasting gods they never plant with their own hands or plow the soil. Unsown, unplowed, the earth teems with all they need…” (Book 9, Line 120) This demonstrates that the gods already show favor to the Cyclops. And after Odysseus puts out Polyphemus’ eye and Polyphemus cries to his father “…grant that Odysseus… never reaches home. Or if he’s fated to see his people…, let him come home late and come a broken man – all shipmates lost, alone in a stranger’s ship – and let him find a world of pain at home.” (9, 584) As we know, eventually everything that he asks of his father comes to pass. But if Poseidon loves Polyphemus (or feels obliged enough to avenge him for his pain), why does he left him get hurt in the first place? If he could control Polyphemus’ destiny (or Odysseus’ for that matter) and prevent all of this pain for Polyphemus and trouble for himself, why did he not do so?
Another example is Menelaus. As we know, Eidothea helps Menelaus and his men subdue Proteus in order to return home from the Trojan War (4,427-530). Did Proteus destine that he would be ambushed with the aid of his own daughter and forced to talk? In my opinion, there is no way.
The gods can do things that affect the destiny of the mortal men, like when Poseidon killed Ajax (4, 570), or like the tale itself: how Odysseus returns home despite the many obstacles. While the gods can certainly affect the destiny of men, they do not control their destiny at all times and do not control the men themselves.
It is clear throughout the text that the gods are above mortals. The gods control what path a person takes. We even see this among gods. Gods have more of a free will structure. Athena shows great free will in the beginning of the book by saying she wants to help Odysseus and help Telemachus find his way. This was not Zeus’ wish. So that right there shows us that gods might have a little more control on what they do. I find it interesting however that in the very first couple lines of the book it says, “Ah, how shameless the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries compound their pains beyond their share (1.37)” This line tells me that the gods are not the only say. There is balance between power and destiny.
ReplyDeleteIn book 3 when Athena was talking to Telemachus she said, “… than hurry home to die at my own heath like Agamemnon, killed by Aegisthus’ cunning –by his own wife,. But the great lever, Death: not even the gods can defend a man not even one they love, that day when fate takes hold and lays him out at last. (3.266)” Athena, a goddess, is saying that when it comes down to it, gods can’t do anything about death. The mortals have fate on their side.
In Book 5 when Hermes is speaking with Calypso he says, “ Now Zeus commands you to send him off with all good speed: it is not his FATE to die here, far from his own people. DESTINY still ordains that he shall see his loved ones reach his high-roofed house, his native land at last. (5. 125)” Hermes is saying that Odysseus’ fate is not with Calypso and his destiny is still to come. I do think that the gods control the mortals. I believe that there is an equation for the way things are “suppose” to go. There is the god effect added to the mortal flaws, added to what destiny awaits.
Agency and free will appear to be of random occurrence in The Odyssey, with no set rules or boundaries. Gods, humans and other forces all seem to struggle for the right to decide. However, through careful observation a hierarchy takes form. Lowest on the totem pole are humans, buffeted by the quixotic nature of the gods. For example, the ill-fated Ajax celebrates his survival by boasting, “In the teeth of the gods, I have escaped the ocean’s sheer abyss!” The god Poseidon does not take kindly to the mockery, and destroys the rock Ajax is perched on, sending him to his death (Page 140 Line 564-572).
ReplyDeleteYet the gods themselves have limited power. Zeus himself says that it is man’s own fault for his troubles, and that the gods are only trying to help (Page 78 Line 37-39). An example of this tangled web would be the interaction of Aegisthus and the gods. Hermes warns this man not to murder Agamemnon or court his wife, and explicitly tells Aegisthus that Orestes, Agamemnon’s son, will seek revenge (Page 78 Line 58). Aegisthus goes on to disobey the gods, and murders Agamemnon after courting his wife. Despite his obvious disobedience, Aegisthus still makes many sacrifices to the gods (Page 116 Line 311). This action is contradictory, and makes the role of the gods even more unclear. Because after assumingly accepting the sacrifices, Hermes’s message (or Zeus’s fury?) comes to fruition and Aegisthus is murdered by Orestes.
While the gods have power over humans, some also have control over other gods. Zeus is considered the ringleader, proven by Hermes warning to Calypso, “Steer clear the rage of Zeus! Or down the years he’ll fume and make your life hell” (Page 157 Line 162). Poseidon, also Zeus’s brother, wields a fair amount of power in the lives of both humans and gods. Athena is wary of the lord of the sea, despite her protection as Zeus’s daughter (Page 178 Line 363). Yet in the end, even the all-powerful gods know their limits. Athena recognizes Death as “the great leveler,” and she says that “not even the gods can defend a man … that day when fate takes hold and lays him out at last” (Page 115 Line 270). This insightful comment reveals Death and Fate to be the true gods of the ancient world.
In the case of the Odyssey, I do believe the characters have free will. However, it seems to me that the choices they make may influence the amount of "tinkering" the Gods do within their destiny. Take Telemachus, for example, who consistently strives to the do the right thing by his mother and father, thus receiving help from Athena. I believe it has already been mentioned above, but Telemachus showing great hospitality toward Athena, just seeing her as a stranger could've been a factor in the role Athena chooses to play in his life (1.132). The tinkering Athena does, in this case is for the common good of Telemachus, as she helps him grow and mature and guide him in the right direction.
ReplyDeleteAnother example of this would be Poseidon's anger toward Odysseus after he unnecessarily blinds his son Polyphemus. As was discussed in class, it would seem that Odysseus and his men were invading the cyclops land, specifically Polyphemus. Not only that, but they were expecting to receive gifts after entering his cave uninvited. In this scenario, I feel that Odysseus was being quite unrealistic with these expectations and he got what he deserved by his rather extended journey home, compliments of Poseidon. After Polyphemus sends up his prayer to his father, Odysseus' actions and free-will end up causing him quite a bit of trouble (9.584). This is one example of the Gods tinkering with characters, but not without first allowing them to make choices that will affect their destiny out of their own free-will.
I believe that the gods play a big role in destiny for humans. If you take Telemachus for example, it took Athena to get him up and going to go on a journey to find Odysseus. I don't believe that he would have done this on his own. Plus I think that there are other motives for Athena for wanting Odysseus home and in order to achieve these plans someone had to set in motion looking for Odysseus so why not it be his son. Since Telemachus is so young and really doesn't know what he's doing Athena helps him with everything. In book 1 (320 to 350) Athena gives him clear step by step instructions for finding his father and Telemachus does everything she says. This puts in motion of getting Odysseus returned home.
ReplyDeleteWhen humans control their own destiny it seems like disasters happen or death. I haven't seen where any human who does not take the advice of a god has had anything good come out of it. Take Odysseus for example not using the scarf Ino gave him and he decided to wait jumping into the ocean toward shore. Poseidon then released a wave that forced him to jump from the ship and he really had nothing to lose if he put on the scarf and it was three days til he reached land. I do believe that the gods do pull there weight around each other such as in the case with Zeus...demanding that Caylpso release Odysseus to go home. If gods had equal power then there is no way Caylpso would have let Odysseus go. If you look at chapter 5 (152-155) it says "But since there is no way for another got to thwart the will of storming Zeus and make it come to nothing, let the man go-if the Almighty insists, commands-and destroy himself on the barren salt sea.!" or when Hermes told Calypso in lines 161 "Release him at once, just so. Steer clear of the rage of Zeus! or down the years he'll fume and make your life a hell" this shows us clearly that the gods have rank over one another but I think each god is given a territory to watch over and if any of the humans wander on to their territory they can wreak havoc on them as much as they want and make it hard for the human to achieve his goals. I do not believe that other gods control the destiny of other gods. I just think that they have certain rank and have to follow orders from the higher rank but to control the gods own destiny I don't believe that to be true.
In the Odyssey, there are many cases where gods interfere with the lives of mortals. This raises the question of whether or not mortals have free will or if a stronger destiny grasps their movements.
ReplyDeleteI think mortals do have a sort of free will in that they are able to choose their paths. The gods may guide them or tempt them but ultimately the choice is theirs. This theory, however, gets complicated as one analyzes the interactions between man and god. I think the gods do control the fate of a select few, those who could be considered “mortal heroes”, if you will. For example, in the case of Agamemnon, he states that he “was not wrecked in the ships when lord Poseidon roused some punishing blast of stormwinds, gust on gust, nor did ranks of enemies mow me down on land” (11. 459-61). This implies that although the gods interfere with the lives of mortals, the mortals do certainly have a fighting chance in many cases. As Agamemnon’s story unfolds and he reveals how “Aegisthus hatched my doom and destruction” (11.462) one is led to believe that it was man rather than god who slaughtered this hero. However Odysseus makes the comment, “Zeus from the very start, the thunder king has hated the race of Atreus with a vengeance –his trustiest weapon women’s twisted wiles” (11. 494-96). This brings us back full swing to the idea that the gods are ultimately in control if they so wish to be—which is usually the case with mortal heroes.
Onto the question of how gods may potentially control the destiny of other gods: I think the gods definitely do have the power to control other gods. In Greek mythology there’s plenty of information about how gods have rebelled against other gods or their creators. In the Odyssey, some of this comes to light as we see how the gods interact with one another. For example, there are plenty of interactions that imply Zeus truly is king of the gods. When Helios is offended by Odysseus’ crew he yells out, “Father Zeus! the rest of you blissful gods who never die—punish them all!” (12. 405-06). Helios does threaten to leave both the immortal and mortal realms if his wish isn’t granted but the fact remains that he directly addressed Zeus for help while lumping together the other gods in his request. Poseidon also asks Zeus for help once Odysseus reaches Ithica. He addresses Zeus as father (though Poseidon is Zeus’ elder brother) and goes on to say, “but I never dreamed of blocking his return, not absolutely at least, once you had pledged your word and bowed your head” (13.150-52). This shows respect for Zeus’ authority.
Overall, mortals have control in their fate insomuch as they have the power of choice and gods control other gods minimally as there is an apparent hierarchy in their world.
I am a firm believer in life that everything happens for a reason, because someone has a plan for me and that is why certain things happen in life, things that you might not have asked for. In the Odyssey so far, we have discovered that certain things happen for mortals because the gods are interfering and helping them during their adventures. They have specific plans for certain mortals and they help the mortals along the way so that the plans can be fulfilled. For example, when Odysseus was traveling with his men trying to reach home, he speaks of a god taking pity on him and sending a stag across his path for food. Without the Gods help, who knows if Odysseus would have found food and possibly he could have died. Another example is in book ten as well, when Hermes comes down and speaks to Odysseus about how he can get his men safely out of Circe's palace. He tells Odysseus exactly what to say and eventually it gets Odysseus's men turned back into humans and it saves Odysseus from going into Circe's palace stupidly and getting turned into a pig himself. This is all because the gods have a plan for Odysseus, so they are helping him out along the way. Also, Athena came down in disguise in hopes to convince Telemachus to travel to find word of his father or possibly even find his father. That she was doing because she had a clear plan in mind: to save Odysseus, and therefore she was able to control and convince Telemachus to do as she asked. Another example of a god controlling mortals other than Odysseus would be when Athena keeps going under disguise to give people orders to help Odysseus through his travels, such as when she ordered Telemachus's men to get the ship together for him to travel because she wanted Telemachus to find his father, she had a clear plan and she controlled the mortals to perform certain tasks and control their destinies. The gods absolutely control the destiny of the mortals they find worthy. I do not believe they do this for entertainment, because they seem to have to take a lot of time watching these mortals and the gods spend energy on changing forms and disguises so the mortals will believe them.
ReplyDeleteWhen it comes to the question of Gods controlling other gods destiny, I am not sure if they have that power or not. I have not seen any outright evidence to suggest that the Gods take orders from one another or that they can be controlled. However, when one of the gods, Hermes, came down to Calypsos palace to deliver the message that Odysseus was to be free, she did listen to him and without a fight she let Odysseus free. Was that her being controlled by Hermes to do what he asked or was she simply just afraid of Zeus and did as she was ordered by her own free will? The text did not make it clear but I believe the gods are afraid of other gods such as Zeus and although none of the Gods control any of the others, there are still gods that hold more power over others and therefore, are more in control and gods do as they ask. But I do believe they all have their own free will.
In "The Odyssey" there is a clear hierarchical relationship between the gods and the humans. Just as many others pointed out in the text, the first book shows Zeus responding to how the mortals blame the gods for all their problems. These lines lead me to believe that they do not have ultimate control over the human’s lives.. The mortals have free will and can make their own choices, but with the gods always behind their backs. The gods are always there to influence and sway the mortals in their own ways, if they so chose. In book 2 Athena is explained as “taking the build and voice of Mentor once again, flashing-eyed Athena urged him on:” (2. 441). Here she is pushing, not forcing, Telemachus to go on his voyage for his father. Again at the end of book 2 Telemachus “…inspired, gave his first commands… ” only doing so because of Athena’s insight (2. 450). If Athena held complete control over Telemachus she would not have to take the place of a mentor, or urge him at all, she would be able to act as she desired. Although she did not have full control over the situation, I do believe that the gods have an extremely strong influence in the mortal’s lives. I believe that Athena plays a role in Telemachus’ life along with his fathers because she enjoys it. Athena holds a level of respect for Odysseus and shows this by aiding both him and his son.
ReplyDeleteAlthough the gods may not have complete control over the human’s decisions, they have the option, and the power, to meddle into the mortal’s lives. Poseidon shows this by constantly interfering with Odysseus’ voyages home, making them more complicated. Throughout the book the humans are often shown praying to the gods for safety or aid, and are doing so out of respect, along with fear, and despair. The humans realize that the gods are there, and if they chose to they can help the humans. On the other hand, the gods also have the upper hand so they can just as easily choose to ignore the humans and their requests.
With the relationship between the gods themselves I believe it is somewhat similar, in regards to a hierarchy system. I believe that the gods too are able to exercise their free will. Athena’s free will is shown through her actions of assisting Odysseus and Telemachus. As stated in class, in the beginning of book 5 Athena is trading between Zeus and Poseidon asking permission to act but Zeus responds with “my child…what nonsense you let slip through your teeth…the power is yours, no doubt” making us question if she needed permission in the first place (5. 24) Even if the gods do work together when needed, in certain circumstances Zeus seem to triumph over the rest of them. This is proven in Book 5 when Homer states, “But since there is no way for another god to thwart the will of storming Zeus and making it come to nothing…” leading the readers to believe that Zeus is all powerful and that no one should try to influence his decisions (5. 152). Ultimately, I believe that the gods do not control the destiny of the humans, or other gods, they are merely just a noticeable influence on each other’s lives.
Based on the text, I was able to observe the relationships between the gods and humans, and more specifically between Athena and Telemachus. I believe that this relationship demonstrates how the gods would use humans as pawns. They had a goal and used the humans) to achieve the goal. The relationship between Athena and Telemachus had a unique feel to it. The relationship began in when Athena decided help Odysseus to return home by using his son Telemachus (1.96-112). Athena had a plan to free Odyseeus and set out to use Telemachus in order to make the name of Odysseus known again and it allowed the gods to think about Odysseus again once his name began to become known again. Athens coached Telemachus as to what to say(1.352-360), where to go(1.320-351), and what to do(2.302-329). She guided him, like a father would guide a son, in order to help him grow as a person. This growth allowed for Telemachus to respond to people in a manner that achieved Athena’s goal. Athena uses this to persuade the gods to have leniency on Odysseus and to allow him to travel home(5.1-31). For example, after Odyseeus’ name is made known, the gods discuss the situation and a decision is made that Odysseus must be let free. Athena used Telemachus to achieve her goal of setting Odysseus free!
ReplyDeleteI think the Gods have a large amount of free will, but are still controlled by other Gods sometimes. For example when Zeus told Calypso to free Odysseus even though she didn’t want to, she had to do it because it was an order from Zeus and he’s more powerful than she is. (5.35) If the Gods had total free will they wouldn’t be at all concerned about what other Gods demand they do.
ReplyDeleteI can’t really decide if humans have free will or not. If they do it is to a much lesser extent than the Gods have. They seem to make their own decisions like when Athena presented herself in a disguise to Telemachus she advised him, but didn’t tell him what to do. ( 1.311) While Telemachus does do what she wants him to do he could have chosen not to follow her advice. However, if Athena hadn’t set the ball rolling for him to get the idea in the first place that path never would have opened up. Sometimes Gods do blatantly show that they can control what humans do by telling them what to do, but if they can do that why does Athena not show herself to Telemachus and spell out what she wants him to do? I suppose that by allowing Telemachus to make his own decision about whether he wanted to take Athena’s advice or not means that the Gods allow us to have free will, meaning we don’t really have free will at all. If something can be taken away from you at any moment then it was never really yours to begin with.
Throughout this narration, we get the point of view of both mortals and immortals. Although it is not completely clear on who is making the decisions, one point of view is that mortals are capable of making their own decisions without the influence of the gods. For the most part, the gods are not out to get the mortals, for the exception of Poseidon who is out to torment Odysseus for injuring his son, like we learned in book 9. The Gods do intervene a lot on the behalf of the mortals, but for the exception of Athena, who is clearly out to help mortals like Telemacus and Odysseus, the gods stick to their own lives unless they are called on for help. The gods clearly have their own issues to deal with like sleeping with mortal women, pages 257-259, clearly portrays several examples of women being seduced and bedded by immortal men. I think it is fair to conclude that the gods interfere on the behalf of mortals when they are asked or if something sets them up. It would seem impossible for the gods to control every person and determine their destiny. I do think certain people are selected to be favored or distained by gods, but it is because of their virtues or actions that causes the gods to react in the way they do, when they do, which is not every major occurrence.
ReplyDeleteThe degree of free will varies among characters, making the question of free will vs. destiny difficult to answer. The limitation of this free will seems to depend on the adequacy of libations to the gods, as well as their preference for mortals and feelings of respect. Because of Athena’s preference for Odysseus, she influences the Phaeacians to shower Odysseus with gifts and sail him back to Ithaca. As a result, Poseidon feels dishonored and Zeus tells him, “If any man…pays you no respect-just pay him back,” (13, 164). Therefore, the destiny of Phaeacian men is altered due of Athena’s preference for Odysseus and Poseidon’s feelings of disrespect. It seems as if the gods’ reason for intervention is more concerned with satisfying personal desires rather than altering destiny. The gods act in various ways to satisfy their personal desires. Athena advises Telemachus to sail in quest of news of his father, yet states, “It all rests with you,” (1, 350). The basic plan was set initially set in place for Telemachus, but he retained the personal agency to ultimately determine how the plan unfolded. Later, Athena more directly intervenes by exercising the power to sail Telemachus home safely. Although the gods maintain the power to significantly intervene with the lives of men, this power is not absolute. For example, Athena states, “ not even the gods can defend a man…that day when fate takes hold and lays him out at last,” (3, 270). This implies that the gods can tinker with the lives of humans, yet the final outcome is inevitable. Limitation of free will also applies to the gods in the sense that Zeus is considered almighty above all other gods and therefore has the power to hinder their free will. Overall, human beings retain free will when it does not suit the gods to actively intervene.
ReplyDeleteAt this point in the text I do believe that the gods are what controls the destinies of those that are not gods. Throughout the entire story all of the characters offer up prayers to the gods in hopes that they can be aided by them. Princess Nausicaa supports this idea when she says, “It’s Olympian Zeus himself who hands our fortunes out, to each of us in turn, to the good and bad, however Zeus prefers…” (6.205). Calypso also supports this idea when she says, “But since there is no way for another god to thwart the will of storming Zeus and make it come to nothing, let the man go- if the Almighty insists, commands- and destroy himself on the barren salt sea”(5.152). In this quote Calypso is making it very clear that her desires and wants have no precedence over the rulings of Zeus. Odysseus had acted as a companion and lover to Calypso, which she had long gone without since being ostracized and sent to live on the island. Regardless of her feelings the moment Hermes bears the news she knows that Odysseus must leave. Polyphemus called to the gods, specifically Poseidon, to make sure that Odysseus never makes it back home (9. 597). Polyphemus is a Cyclops that is intimidating and has shown great power over the men, however he even goes to the gods for assistance and guidance.
ReplyDeleteIn the Odyssey the gods play a major role in many of the characters. Not only do the gods interfere, but I believe that the mortals want them to. The mortals praying to the gods only makes it easier for them to want to meddle. One character I believe is influenced throughout the book is Telemachus. While out looking for his father, the suitors planned to attack him on his journey home and kill him. The loyal Eumaeus prays to the gods “And now those gallant suitors lie in wait for him, sailing home, to tear the royal line of Arcesius out of Ithaca, root and branch, good name and all! Enough. Let him pass too—whether he’s trapped or the hand of Zeus will pull him through alive” (14, 208). Then on his journey, surprise, Athena steps in to help him arrive home safely. Giving them the best weather and conditions to make it home swiftly “Now bright eyed Athena sent them a stiff following wind blustering out of a clear sky, gusting on so the ship might run its course through the salt sea at top speed” (15, 325). Sure enough, he makes it home and the suitors do not get to kill him. The struggle that Telemachus undergoes along with Odysseus seems interesting enough for the gods to interfere in his life too.
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