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This question of agency/free will versus destiny is one that many people continue to ask today - though perhaps with different terminology and a different purpose - and the ensuing discussion often ends up arriving nowhere, caught up in a cycle that can be difficult to detangle. These discussions are probably worth having, but for the sake of this discussion space, I'd like you to reflect on these topics only as they pertain to The Odyssey.To what extent do the gods control the destiny of human beings? To what extent (if at all) do human beings control their own destiny? To what extent do gods control the destiny of other gods (begging the question of who, if anyone, is actually in charge of things)?
Certainly Odysseus is an easy target in this discussion since his interaction with the gods is often painfully apparent throughout the text. But I'd like you to set Odysseus aside and instead focus on another character, commenting on that mortal's/immortal's relationship and interaction with the gods, being careful to note specific references to personal agency, divine intervention, and the like. Make special note of references that might seem to contradict one another, offering a theory about how the two can co-exist peacefully in the text. In the end, what observations and conclusions (if any) can we as readers draw about the intersection of humanity and divinity, and the intersection of agency and destiny, in The Odyssey?
Remember to include pertinent book and line references.
The idea of agency/free will versus destiny can be found quite frequently throughout The Odyssey. I feel though, that determining whether the mortal characters are acting on their own or under the influence of the gods is a little unclear, at times contradictive and always open to reader interpretation.
ReplyDeleteIn this story, the gods often give instructions to the immortals. A clear example of this is on page 86 lines 314 to 333 where Athena is telling Telemachus how to deal with suitors, take care of his mother and find his father, Odysseus. Telemachus could have very easily not followed the advice and continued to have put up with the suitors and all of the drama they entailed. But he listened to Athena and set sail to find his father because Athena “…left his spirit filled with nerve and courage…” (88.368). Athena did not actually force Telemachus to set sail in search of Odysseus, so Telemachus was acting upon free will. Telemachus was, however, inspired by Athena’s words and found it in him to go search. In this case, the gods indirectly influenced the mortal’s choice by encouraging him to do something, but not actually forcing him to do it (there was no ultimatum presented).
It seems that the gods only influence the most powerful mortals in The Odyssey. When Odysseus’ crew opens the bag of winds (232.52), no god is there to make them open the bag, stop them from opening the bag or even provoke them to see what is inside. They all act upon free will and their own curiosity, not the gods.
In book one, Zeus says “Ah how shameless – the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (78.37). In this statement, Zeus is saying that although the mortals will blame the gods for any wrongdoings, they (mortals) are responsible for their own pains (wrongdoings). Zeus, a god, is admitting that mortals act upon their own free will.
When it comes to gods acting upon their own free will or under influence of other gods, things get a little more complicated. Zeus says “How can he stand his ground against the will of all the gods at once – one god alone?” (80.94) about Poseidon meaning he (Zeus) feels that Poseidon cannot stand his own ground and will be forced do what the other gods pressure him into doing. Later, Poseidon says to Zeus “Zeus, Father, I will lose all my honor now among the immortals, now there are mortal men who show me no respect…I said myself that Odysseus would suffer long and hard before he made it home…” (290.145. In these instances, the god, Poseidon, is acting upon free will when he pleads that he must have his revenge upon Odysseus so that people will not disrespect him. Poseidon has to keep his word and reputation (free will) as to not be forced into something he doesn’t want to do (let Odysseus get home easily).
In the end, it seems that while the gods may influence each other and the humans, that ultimately, there is always a choice in whether or not to do something. Thus far, no one, mortal or immortal, has been forced to do something. Yes, advice and instructions have been given, but no one was there to enforce the advice/instructions. The person always had the choice to say no or not listen.
Within the Odyssey, mortal/immortal interactions and the idea of free will or agency vs. destiny play a major role in the overall story. However, determining whether the gods control the human's destiny or even the destiny of other gods is difficult. I feel that it is difficult to determine because you can argue both ways that they do or dont. Being able to argue whether the gods do or dont have control, means that the story is now left to the readers interpretation.
ReplyDeleteI would not neccessarily say that the gods control the destiny of humans or other immortals alike, but i would say that they strongly influence the overall decision that the character makes. Zeus says “Ah how shameless – the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (78.37-40). So even Zeus is recognizing that the mortals have the power of free will. In the beginning you see Athena come to Telemachus and tell him how to kill the suitors, and how to obtain news of his father (86. 312-351). He could have told her that he was not going to sail and he was not going to face the suitors, but he did'nt. Telemachus had the choice not to go but he choose because of his own free will to go. I think that the gods influence the overall decision of the characters.
However, there are those cases where you see other gods influence the decisions of other gods, or more or less overpower another.
Zeus is seen as the overall, all powerful, god, and you can see how he has a power over Athena. In book five Athena begs her father, Zeus, to have Calypso let Odysseus go and to guarentee Telemachus a safe trip. Zeus says he will let Odysseus go and that Athena has to guide Telemachus to safety (152-153. 8-31). Here you see how the gods turn to Zeus for answers and advice. In this case, Zeus instructed the ways of Athena and indirectly influenced the destiny of Odysseus.
Overall, the gods influence the decisions made by the humans and other gods alike. However, the choice is still there for the characters. I feel that destiny is too large of a thing for a god to create or control. The gods were always there to give their opinion or advice but they were never there to enforce them, the choice to listen or not was always that of the characters.
When it comes to agency and destiny in the Odyssey I view their world as a sort of game for the gods. What I mean is that the humans’ lives are basically controlled and determined by the whims of particular gods and goddesses. But since the gods have a “humanly” quality about them in this narrative (because it is written from a human’s perspective) they cannot control all people all the time. So the world is set on an “autopilot” while gods handle what really interests them; in this narrative that would be Odysseus and his family. So what happens when the gods’ attention is diverted is free will. That is when people get a chance to exercise their independence. An example of when the gods are controlling the actions of people is when in book 15 Athena comes to Telemachus in a dream to tell him to go home and leave Sparta because his mother is soon to marry. Also she warns “Picked men of the suitors lie in ambush, grim-set in the straits between Ithaca and rocky Same, poised to kill you before you can reach home.” This is an example of direct interference with Telemachus’ actions, thoughts, and destiny. If Athena didn’t come to him he might have stayed in Sparta and his mother would have chosen one of the suitors or if he would have thought of leaving on his own, he wouldn’t have gotten the warning about the ambush and thus would have been killed. It is by the god’s interference that Telemachus’ future is not by his own will and desires but determined by the gods in particular Athena.
ReplyDeleteTo start, I agree with the points that Vicki and Heather made. It is difficult in this book to pinpoint who is controlling whose destiny. I do feel that while the gods are in charge of the destiny of each human being, the human beings are making decisions themselves about their destiny. Whether the gods already know this or not, it is hard to say given the fact that human beings seem to be given choices.
ReplyDeleteSomething that was interesting to me or that stuck out to me was the relationship with Athena and Penelope. In Book 4 Athena appears to Penelope as her sister in a dream and tells her to have courage that her son will return home, but I found that it was odd to reassure Penelope of this yet Athena would not reassure Penelope of the return of Odysseus (151.928-942). Although, it seems through-out the book that Athena knows the outcome. Another thing that interests me between Penelope and Athena is the fact that whenever Penelope is sobbing for Odysseus Athena always blesses her with sleep (89.419). It seems as though that Penelope doesn’t have a choice in her grief or sleep when Athena knows what the outcome will be for their family.
As for the point that the gods control the other gods is interesting because on page 161 starting with line 315 where Poseidon sees that Odysseus is off Calypso’s island and he is enraged at the fact that the gods have changed their minds. However in this section I feel like the gods haven’t changed their mind, it’s just that Athena is working her way with her father Zeus and she is getting what she wants instead of what the rest of the gods may or may not want (152.8-30). Also after Poseidon sees Odysseus he rages on the sea and hopes to shipwreck him further more (162.346-351), but Leucothea sees him and gives him the scarf because she took pity on him (162.370), and then again Athena steps in and tries to counter-act everything the Poseidon does in order to protect Odysseus (164.421) It seems as if the gods are, together, in a way, but clearly they favor certain humans.
It seems that all of these elements can co-exist much because there is more than one god and each god, although has their favorites, it’s as if they keep each other in line with fighting it out. It does seem as if the gods control the destiny of the humans, however in some instances the humans do have some choices that they can make. It just seems that regardless, it is better to follow what the gods say and advice in order to live a peaceful life. But, what’s the fun in that?
I think it is difficult to say exactly who is controlling who is The Odyssey. At times in the book the idea of personal agency seems to appear then is later contradicted with examples of destiny or fate. As discussed in class last week, I'd have to agree with the idea that the Gods do have some control over humans on the big events, but on the smaller incidences the humans have free will to chose what they do.
ReplyDeleteThe idea that Gods have control over humans for big events can be seen through the prophecies throughout the text. So far I have come across atleast five or six prohecies projected or completed. For example, the prophecy the Cyclops heard from Telemus that he'd "be blinded here at the hands of one Odysseus" in his cave (227. 563-574). Another example is when the Phaeacians sail Odysseus home to Ithaca. Poseidon becomes very angry with them and after consulting with Zeus decides to let Poseidon punish them. So he crushes their ship and piles a mountain around their port (292. 193-202). From these examples, and many others, it seems to me that Gods already know what is going to happen to the humans for these big events in their lives, but the humans have the power to choose everything they do leading up to these events. Some example of the smaller things the humans decide for themseves are what they eat, what they drink, what gifts they give to other people, and etc.
The idea of influence has also appeared in the text several times. For example, Book One is called "Athena Inspires the Prince." All of this book is about Athena telling Telemachus to set sail for Pylos and Sparta in search of news about his father. Other obvious examples are when Athena disguises herself, and speaks to Nausicaa in her sleep "...Come let's go wash these clothes at the break of day..." (169. 23-44), and when she disguises herself as Penelope's sister and speaks to Penelope in her sleep "You son will still come home- it is decreed" (150. 901-942). These examples illustrate that the Gods do have some control over the humans and can possibly manipulate them to feel or act as they want. However, I do think the humans do have the choice whether or not to follow what the Gods advised or influenced them to do. But this raises the question, would Telemachus ever have set sail if he wasn't inspired? Would Nausicaa ever gone to the river if Athena hadn't inspired her in her dream? This is where the argument turns into a repetitive cycle.
However, I think it is clear that Zeus is the highest power among the Gods. This is demonstrated when Poseidon asked Zeus if he could hurt the Phaeacians, when Athena begs her father to let Odysseus go free from Calypso's island, and also when Zeus commands Hermes to go tell Calypso to let Odysseus go free. But you can also see a ranking order among the Gods. For example, in Book Five, when Athena counteracts everything Poseidon is doing to kill Odysseus, in order to actually keep him alive.
With all the contradicting evidence in throughout the book, my conclusion is that yes, humans do have some agency, but only over the smaller less significant events in their lives. The important events for humans seem to be destiny or fate from the Gods. The Gods also can influence the humans as they please, but cannot force them to act or feel a certain way. And among the Gods, Zeus seems to be the most powerful god.
The theory of agency is quite complicated when trying to apply it to The Odyssey. Agency is defined as the capacity of an entity to cause events. Characters by and large are entities with agency. Agency is often linked to the capacity to act with intent. In The Odyssey agency applies to the interaction between Gods and humans. The real question is, do the humans have any control over their fait, or do the Gods control everything?
ReplyDeleteIn The Odyssey, it is difficult to tell where free will comes into play and whether or not the Gods care one way or another for humans and their feelings. For example, Athena tells Telepaths how to be rid of his mother’s suitors, “But you, I urge you, think how to drive these suitors from your halls. Come now, listen closely. Take my words to your heart” (1. 312-314). Although Athena seems to care for Telemachus when she gives him these instructions, it is questionable about whether or not she is sincere or if she has ulterior motives. And although she does not force him to do anything, how can a god expect a human to resist her instructions?
That is one example of the way gods seem to have human-like emotions. It seems as thought Gods favor certain humans. For reasons I am not sure of, Athena favors Odysseus and Telemachus. Poseidon acts on his personal feelings when he carries a grudge against Odysseus after he discovers what he did to his son (5.346-351). It does seem quite contradictory when Zeus states, “Ah how shameless – the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (1.37-40). Isn’t Poseidon acting similarly to the shameless mortals when he decides punish Odysseus?
There is no clear answer when it comes to agency, but I believe free will still exists in The Odyssey. However, humans can be somewhat controlled, and/or influenced by the Gods. Gods and humans are one in the same when it comes to emotions and human-like qualities, but Gods do play a large part in the interaction between humans and the circumstances and mayhem they seem to end up in.
When reading the Odyssey it is the easiest to see fate/free will when it comes to Odysseus because he is the human with the most god contact. However there are many other instances of free will/fate. I believe that there may be small amounts of agency (such as choosing what there is to eat) but life is mostly up to fate. However, the arguement that I would like to make is how the people of the book view it. Do they believe life is mostly fate or do they believe that have agency. This should directly relate to how we then see the events of the book.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the people we meet along the journey of the Odyssey mostly believe in fate. There are very numerous examples of these and I will touch on a few.
The first I'd like to reference is when Odysseus and his crew are on Circe's island. After spending a year there his men say "if it really is your fate to make it back alive". I believe this shows that Odysseus crew believes that whatever they do is handed down to them from the gods. That the small events leading up to the big even may be different, but the goal is always going to be the same.
The next section I would like to analyze is the prophacy that Odysseus receieves while in the kingdom of the dead from the Theban prophet. (11.124-132) They all decide to believe the prophacy which I interupt to mean that they believe in fate. If there was no fate then the prophecy could change and no one would believe it.
Another event happens that could be considered a prophacy but happens in a different way. In book 15, Telemachus is about to leave to go back home when they see an eagle with a goose in its talons. (15.178-184) Helen then makes a prophacy out of the events (yes, it is still a prophacy but since it was more of an interpretation of an even I believe it is differnet).
However, there are instances of free will amoung the people as well. One such event is where Theoclymenus tells Penelope that Odysseus is already back on home land and she does not believe this. The reason she may not believe it is because she thinks he is already dead out there somewhere and decides that this prophacy is not true. Does this mean she beleives in free will or simply that in this instance she believes against fate?
And when it comes down to the intersections between fate and agency there is a very blurred grey area. It is nearly impossible to tell the difference between the two. We could say that we have agency to make decisions such as where to eat for lunch, but who is to say that it was not predetermined that we would be going there for lunch and that us making that decision was part of the destiny?
The intersection between humanity and divinity is alittle easier. Characters are either humans or gods (excluding gods without powers, or humans with god given powers). I believe humans are dependant on gods, and gods are dependant on no one (besides Zeus). So in all, yes there is some agency to make decisions, but I believe it all is pointless because the end result is predetermined.
Whether or not the gods control the destiny of mortals or if they can make their own choices is a very debatable question. From the start of the Odyssey, we see how the gods and mortals interact with each other. Through these interactions we see how destiny comes about.
ReplyDeleteThe characters in this book seem to follow the advice the gods give them. Telemachus listened to Athena when she urges him to travel for word of his father. She even states, “For you, I have some good advice, if only you would accept it” (86:320-321). This shows that Telemachus does not have to follow what she says, even though he does. He can choose what he does and this gives him some power over his own destiny.
However, in other parts of the book, it does seem like the gods control the major events, as well as daily activities, in a mortal’s life. It seems almost any time a person goes to sleep; it is because the gods put them to sleep. For example, when Athena, “ drifted a sound slumber over Icarius’ daughter (Penelope)” (382: 213). Athena puts Penelope asleep so she can make her more alluring to Odysseus and the suitors. The gods seem to put the mortals to sleep whenever they want to control something about them whether it’s how they look, want to send them a message, or want to make sure they cannot control their environment. Mortals do not have choice on whether or not to fall asleep, making their free agency nonexistent.
While there are examples both the gods controlling destiny and not controlling destiny, the best example of how much control the gods have is shown in a statement by Zeus himself. In the beginning of the book Zeus is speaking to a counsel of gods complaining about mortals. He says, “Ah how shameless – the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (78:37). This shows that mortals do have control of their lives since the gods complain that they get blamed for their wrong-doings. Since the gods don’t have total control over the mortals’ lives, free will exists.
I believe that agency is shared by the mortals and the gods. While the gods can control what happens if they are mad enough, evidence in the book proves shared control.
Personally I feel that the topic of agency, whether the gods are making the humans do what they want or the humans just doing what they want to do, is not favored over either. I am more towards the idea that there are fates being deciding for everyone including the immortal gods. It’s true that the gods have enough power over the humans to decide their fate, but everything the gods want don’t always happen because other gods are interfering with their plans which doesn’t seem like a “solid fate” has been set. Seeing how nothing is perfect for the gods, except for an instant death on someone, just makes me think that their actions have already been decided by some form of “fate.” It seems ironic with this idea because this form of fate that involves humans and gods actually makes them equal.
ReplyDeleteAs I said before it’s true that gods have enough power over the humans to decide their fates, but it seems more like if the gods want something to happen to a certain person then fates caused by gods with obviously occur. Athena is definitely a god who is making fates occur and change to both humans and gods. Though the gods make prophecies about people it doesn’t mean that it will happen for sure like for Nausicaa and Athena. “Nausicaa, how could your mother bear a careless girl like you? Look at your fine clothes, lying here neglected—with your marriage not far off, the day you should be decked in all your glory and offer elegant dress to those who form your escort.” (6.27-32). The thing about those two is that there isn’t much of a relationship with them. What I think the reason for Athena to meet Nausicaa was only to use her to get Odysseus to King Alcinous. Sure it’s true that Athena gave her a prophecy about marriage but it doesn’t seem like Athena is going to see through it all to make it happen. It seems that Athena is proving that prophecies are said by gods can be nulled by other god’s actions/intentions. Athena also ruins plans for Poseidon to make Odysseus suffer and angers him. “’Outrageous! Look how the gods have changed their minds about Odysseus—while I was off with my Ethiopians. Just look at him there, nearing Phaeacia’s shores where he’s fated to escape his noose of pain that’s held him until now.’” (5.315-319). Seeing the relationship that Poseidon and Athena have seems like she wouldn’t interfere with anything he wants to do since they are Uncle and niece. “But Zeus’s daughter Athena countered him at once. The rest of the winds she stopped right in their tracks, commanding them all to hush now, go to sleep.”
Does a really an abstract idea like fate really exist? If so it doesn’t seem like fate only applies to humans, but gods as well. If there is no such thing as fate then is agency just reduced to beings having enough power to control other beings? Like I said at the beginning I think that either forms of agency don’t apply and that there is a higher order of agency that controls both the humans and gods. In everyone’s time of existence there are pre-made actions, emotions, thoughts already made at or before a person’s time of birth. It’s hard to prove it but seeing in the Odyssey how god’s words aren’t absolute if other god’s interfere makes me think a higher being than the gods exist that control it all and create the agency for everything.
Agency is defined as the capacity of an entity to cause events, as in they can act with their free will and intent to carve out their own destiny. In the Odyssey there are many different places in the novel where it can be argued that characters are merely toys of the Gods, but in contrast it can also be argued that while the Gods are oppressive the human beings in the book do have agency over their own destiny. One example of this is when Menelaus literally wrestles the immortal man of the sea for answers about his friends. (b4.p137.444) Once Menelaus has wrestled the immortal man into telling him what he wants to know he says, “It’s hard for a mortal man to force a god,” showcasing that it is possible. On the contrasting side the gods speak to each other in ways implying that humans are pawns in their game this is exemplified in (B13.p291.158-190) when Poseidon crashes the Phaeacians ship into a cliff just because he complained to Zeus for not letting him make Odysseus’ trip home harder with Zeus giving into him and saying, “Here’s what seems best to me. As the people all lean down from the city heights to watch her speeding home, strike her into a rock and amaze all men with this marvel and then pile a mountain round their port,“ (b13.p291.176-180) and then after the ship crashes the king of the Phaeacian’s said that it was foretold in a prophecy that this would happen carrying the implication that all of the Gods destruction is predetermined and inevitable to the humans.
ReplyDeleteThroughout The Odyssey, it seems like the concepts of fate, destiny, and free will are a bunch of tangled puppet strings with the role of the puppeteer generally in limbo. It seems like at points one could make the assertion that Zeus is in control of the complicated hierarchy of the gods and humans, but then the gods make a flippant choice or humans purposely disobey the gods and the situation seems more complicated than previously believed.
ReplyDeleteThe complicated hierarchy of the gods is demonstrated when Zeus favors Athena and decrees that Odysseus shall be sent home and then Posiedon is offended that he has been left out of the decision to send Odysseus home. Athena opens the council by “recalling Odysseus to their thoughts . . . that godlike man, and kindly as a father to his children.” (5.5,13-14) After her childlike whining, Zeus concedes and tells Athena to “sail him home with all your skill- the power is yours, no doubt.” (5.28-30) At this moment it seems like Zeus still holds the final say in making the big decisions involving the fate of a human. But, when Poseidon spots Odysseus on his way back from Ethiopia he exclaims “Look how the gods have changed their minds about Odysseus . . . I’ll give this man his swamping fill of trouble.” (5.315-320) This instance of changing control may show that Zeus controls lesser gods and holds the grand opinion, but maybe in the case of an equally strong god there is a toss-up for who gets to win out. At this moment it seems like the overreaching free will and destiny are left up to the God that has the latest contact with the person in question.
An interesting turn of events occurs between gods and humans when Athena decides to incite the suitors to further mock the disguised Odysseus after Penelope instructs the suitors to bring her gifts. “Athena had no mind to let the brazen suitors hold back now from their heart-rending insults – she meant to make the anguish cut still deeper into the core of Laertes’ son Odysseuss.” (18.392-394) Here it seems like the suitors made the general character choice to be mean and insulting, but that Athena decided to exacerbate the situation by making them even crueler to the disguised Odysseus. I understand that this is probably needed to make the coming beatdown of the suitors more dramatic but it still makes an interesting situation for analysis. Is the initial character of the suitors a personal choice or have the gods destined them to be this way for the coming events? The argument seems circular and I like to believe that the suitors at least got to choose how their character would be defined.
Overall I think that Gods determine how big life moments will turn out eventually but that the humans get to influence the path taken to get to that life moment and how their personality will be. I think this idea can also be applied to how the gods control each other. Some over ruling power, not necessarily Zeus, has deemed how big events will resolve but the individual gods get to yank on a few strings here and let out a few strings there. I think the intersection of humanity and divinity is well blurred with the seemingly different levels of godliness and god-like humanness. The interaction between destiny and agency seems to be even more blurred and dependent on the small events leading up to the major conclusions.
In the Odyssey, it seems to me that the idea of agency is shown both ways in various situations. Some cases reveal the full power of the gods, casting humans to and fro at their will. Others show dialogue between humans and gods before decisions are made, and yet others the gods do not seem to play a part at all. In the case of Telemachus, I would venture to say that he has not had any agency to this point, as Athena has guided him on his ‘quest’ to find news of his father. In book one, Athena says “I will send him off to Sparta and sandy Pylos” (80.109). Telemachus agrees to do exactly as she says and thus goes on to hear the news that Nestor and Menelaus have to share. When he reaches each of these places, Athena tells him exactly how to act and gives him the confidence to ask the men about his father. At Nestor’s palace, Telemachus was described by the narrator as being “poised” and “filled with heart, the heart that Athena inspired” (109.84). Again in Sparta with Menelaus, Telemachus and Pisistratus appeared to “look like kin of mighty Zeus himself” (125.32). On his return journey home, it was Athena who warned him of the group of men sent by the suitors to kill Telemachus. If not for her, he would have met an unexpected but assured doom. Yes, he had agency in that he could choose to obey the orders of Athena or not. However, is it really a choice when certain death is the result of the alternative? I think that to this point Telemachus has had no agency, although perhaps the ‘coming of age’ of a man brings with it the freedom from the gods that we call agency. I think though that this is not freedom to choose what to do, as Telemachus clearly could do as he pleased. Rather, I think agency is marked by the lack of need for the gods’ advice to begin with. Telemachus, in becoming a man, will be able to ‘weave’ plans for himself, just as his father does. The plan to kill the suitors will be the first of these with the help of Odysseus.
ReplyDeleteDestiny vs. Freewill is a topic that is as old as time. Almost all literature addresses this debate in one way or another and it is not without good cause because it is a question that humans will always ponder and continually makes for reading that is both controversial and interesting. "The Odyssey" follows suit in the case of this debate and remains very open for interpretation. I would argue that there is no way to make a definite statement based on the text one way or another, however by looking at Telemachus and his journey a little more closely one can argue that his journey is very much affected by the gods, however he has free will and whether he acts on it or not he could have made other decisions. Likewise the gods are not perfect in this story. The gods even seem to try and present us with the argument that people can be blamed for hardships such as the speech by Zeus on page 78. This implies that people do have some free and "their own reckless ways" (P78 line 39) will because their decisions can hold merit and change the way that things turn out for them.
ReplyDeleteTelemachus proves that he is operating on free will multiple times throughout the text and this can be seen early. He tells his mother "as for giving orders, men will see to that, but I most of all: I hold the reins of power in this house" (Page 88 Line 409) This is a sudden change in the young man's attitude and there is no way that Athena's ideas alone were responsible for such a change. He may have been greatly influenced but in the end this decision and many others were his. Telemachus is a main character and his choices move things forward.
In conclusion by looking at one character we can find example of decision and change that must have come from within rather than externally. This can not be proven without a doubt, but that is the beauty of the argument! Without this open endedness it would be much less interesting however when you couple the above mentioned scene in which Zeus speaks with what I have said I argue that we can see that people are helped by the gods but determine their own destiny in the end.
In response to the prompt of what extent to gods control the destiny of other gods, I am under the impression that Zeus reigns supreme in the actual controlling of all the other gods, though the “lesser” gods often play tricks and derail the plans of the others. In Book 5, Zeus controls Calypso who would rather keep Odysseus with her forever, however she doesn’t even put up a fight and actually helps Odysseus off her island. Hermes even states in his message to her that “there is no way, you know, for another god to thwart the will of storming Zeus and make it come to nothing” (155.115-116). Zeus’ ability to keep the other gods and goddesses in check is the basis for my belief that he controls them. In Book 12, Zeus even controls Helios who was in a rage upon finding out his cattle had been slaughtered; Zeus promises to gain revenge upon the men, sating Helios’ anger.
ReplyDeleteHowever, this does not change the fact that other gods will easily and without hesitation help mortals while simultaneously going against another god’s plans. In Book 4, Menelaus recounts the tail of how he was stuck on Pharos, proclaiming to Eidothea that “I’m hardly landlocked here of my own free will” (136.422). Eidothea tells him who is keeping him there and shows him how to trick Proteus into freeing them from the island. Proteus happens to be Eidothea’s father and the ease with which she prevents him from imprisoning Menelaus is troubling. The gods seem to have no regard for the happiness of the other gods and their trickery must be frustrating to the mortals whose lives hang in these precarious balances.
Returning to Book 12 and Odysseus’ men who eat Helios’ cattle, I believe this is an instance in which the men used their own free will and it did them harm. A goddess told them not to eat the cattle, but they defied Odysseus’ oath and slaughtered the cattle, creating a domino effect of destiny. Once the men defied the insistence of a goddess, they angered another god, and the wrath of Zeus was laid upon them. This required their own personal agency, as the men chose to eat the cattle even though they had sworn not to; what happened afterward was due to their heedlessness.
However, the mortals also have destiny tied to them, as the suitors will soon be made well aware. In Book 18, even one of the more considerate suitors, Amphinomus, is destined to die regardless of how sincere he may be in his intentions. Odysseus speaks to him about his own return, hoping “may some power save you, spirit you home before you meet him face-to-face” (380.167-168). However, Amphinomus walks away from the warnings “fraught with grave forebodings . . . but not even so could he escape his fate. Even then Athena had bound him fast to death at the hands of Price Telemachus and his spear” (381.176-179). No matter if he tries, Amphinomus will have no chance of escaping his death since Athena has already completely planned his death, including the who and the how. Perhaps this is because he has already sealed his fate by taking part in the slovenly ways of the suitors and must be treated accordingly.
In the end, I believe that Zeus reigns supreme, though he may be undertaking only the more important tasks and allowing the other gods to do as they please, unless it angers Zeus or one of the mortals he has invested his own interest in. The mortals themselves aid in their own misfortunes and many times are in control of their own destiny, but when they happen across a god who has other plans, their fate may be sealed at the hands of a god.
The idea of agency/free will versus destiny is a common theme throughout The Odyssey. At times it seems as if the gods do control the destiny of human beings, but then on the contrary it seems as if the gods do not control the destiny of human beings. As we have discussed in class--it is as if the gods have control over the major issues in a humans life, and less control over the minor issues. It's almost as if the gods want humans to believe that they do have some control over their life, but for the most part they do not.
ReplyDeleteA prime example of this takes place in Book One. Athena comes to Ithaca, in the form of an old friend of Odysseus none the less, to pass the news onto Telemachus that his father is still alive, and suggests that he travel to find him. I believe this is is an example of the gods controlling a humans destiny. Without the push from Athena, I do not believe Telemachus would not have gone to search for his father.
On the other hand, there is a section that I found interesting when trying to decide on this topic. Zeus says, “Ah how shameless – the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (78.37-40). In this passage Zeus is acknowledging the fact that humans do have free will, so obviously the case can be argued this way as well.
Overall I do think that the gods determine how major life events will pan out, but there are certainly times when humans control their own destiny (such as what to eat for meals, who they spend a normal day with, etc.) The Gods also can influence the humans as they please, but they cannot force them to act or feel a certain way.
I had a little trouble thinking and writing about this because with free will here on earth, the power of Our Lord and Savior is so different from the gods and the free will in this book. In the Odyssey, the gods seem to influence what happens during the journey of Odysseus. The gods provide things in the time of need but also cause a lot of bad situations for the human characters. There is a fine line between the gods and humans in this novel, the gods have powers and people pray to the gods, where as the human characters live life and don’t have control over other people. The gods influence the events in the humans’ life, but I think the humans deal with it themselves and chose what they do.
ReplyDeleteFirst off, Athena sticks out to me as being a very helpful goddess. 453.398-399: she fell to weeping for Odysseus, her beloved, husband, till watchful Athena sealed her eyes with welcome sleep. There are several times throughout the book where Athena assists Penelope to sleep when she is crying over her husband. Another example is when Athena and Zeus tend to Odysseus and Penelope because they are both having troubles falling asleep. Odysseus can’t sleep because he is trying to plot how to kill all the suitors, Penelope can’t sleep because she misses Odysseus and isn’t sure if she should remarry. 412.59: With that she showered sleep across his eyes. Right when Athena is doing good by helping Odysseus, Zeus causes commotion and wakes up all the suitors, and then the suitors bash Odysseus. This is a perfect example where gods are influencing the humans’ lives, in good ways and bad. One moment Athena is helping Odysseus and then Zeus steps in and changes the plan for everyone. Zeus caused a scene with all the suitors, but Penelope on her own chooses how she wants to handle it. This goes to show that gods influence the humans’ lives, but after that the humans deal with it themselves.
The idea of agency vs. destiny in The Odyssey is a debate in which very compelling and convincing arguments can be made on either side. In this particular situation, it is especially difficult to land at any sort of conclusion because the gods deal with each and every mortal in their own distinct fashion. Odysseus, for example, is almost entirely at the fate of the gods throughout his entire quest. To make the case for his destiny being laid out by the gods would not be difficult. On the other hand, some of the less influential characters in the story seem to rarely if ever interact with the gods at all. Granted, their lives undoubtedly were indirectly affected by the gods through others. But after wrestling with this question, in my opinion, the gods have ultimate control over what happens to the mortals; however, at times they decide how much, if at all, to get involved in the lives of these mortals.
ReplyDeleteCharacters such as Telemachus are interesting characters to examine because the majority of the gods’ efforts are not devoted to them, yet the moments where the gods influence their lives are monumental. However, these moments seem to represent a slippery slope when put under the discerning light of the agency vs. destiny debate. A prime example comes early in the story when Pallas Athena, seeing that Telemachus is in dire need of help, gives him some advice, “listen closely…take my words to heart…I have some good advice, if only you will accept it” (1.312-321). Although she words her strategic advice as a “suggestion”, it is just as easy to show how she controls Telemachus’ destiny, “he felt his senses quicken, overwhelmed with wonder-this was a god, he knew it well…” (1.371). Another instance comes when Penelope is stricken with grief as she realizes that her son has left Ithaca in search of his father. Athena, to ease her pain, assures Penelope that Telemachus will be safe, “your son will still come home…he’s never wronged the gods in any way” (4.907).
In just as many words, one could just as easily argue how characters such as Telemachus have control over their own destiny. However, with a plethora of examples showing that the gods have interjected their wishes and plans into every important event in the story, it is very hard to disagree with the statement that the gods have the ultimate agency in The Odyssey. While the characters are at times under the impression that they have the ability to resist the advice of the gods, in the end they always seem to follow the advice of the gods just as little ducklings follow their mother, afraid of the consequences if they fall out of place.
The Odyssey likes to show us the contrast and conflict of human will verses the divine, or fate. Can we as humans oppose the gods and their rule, or are we merely tools that they use for amusement and we can never go against or change what has been decreed? That is one question that Homer seems to wrestle with in this tale, and one character in specific seems to show both sides of question. That character is Menelaus.
ReplyDeleteMenelaus recounts his tale to Telemachus of how he returned home, and all the adventures that he went through. He recounts how it was decreed that he and his men were to be stranded on an island because he did not offer sacrifices to them (4.391-407). Also, while talking with the Old Man of the Sea, we hear him say that “it is not your destiny yet…”(4.533). This tells us that there are some things that we as humans are unable to go against, either because of some decree or because of fate.
However, Menelaus hints at the fact that he does have free will and the ability to act on his own to the goddess Eidothea (4.422) when he is asking her for help. Also, in line 444 of the same section, he hints at the fact that a man can force a god to change his fate, but that it is hard. These lines seem to make the point that although there are destinies that every human faces, there is a way for the humans to change them, or at least impact how they have to carry them out.
In this section, we also see that the gods and goddesses have no real control over one another. There are levels of authority, but they can be subverted, just like Eidothea subverts her father in helping Menelaus to capture him.
At the end of this tale, we are left with a somewhat clearer understanding of the order of free will and fate. There are some things that are destined to be done, which the gods or goddesses decreed or that fate decrees. However, the humans have the ability to change, or at the very least impact, their destiny. Also, we see that the gods and goddesses themselves can interact and alter the destiny of humans by helping them or hindering them, depending upon their whims. Thus, fate is a thing decreed for all humanity, but it can change if the gods allow it.
Choosing whether the mortals are or are not controlled by the Gods is quite iffy. They tend to act on their own emotions from time to time with little regard for the Gods' will. From time to time they are challenging the God's in every mortal way.
ReplyDeleteFor instance, the suitors challenging Telemachus despite the sign(eagles) flown down on Ithaca from Zeus himself. Halitherses proclaimed, "Hear me, men of Ithaca! Hear what I have to say, though my revelations strike the suitors first of all-a great disaster is rolling like a breaker towards their heads"(98.180). Despite this clear warning the suitors pursue Odysseus's wife and possessions. They seemingly distrust the sign sent down upon them, even as elders see it as so. Pride and arrogance run aplenty in this novel and it is clearly shown in this chapter.
As much as the people bow down to the Gods with sacrifices by slaughtering cattle mainly, they still challenge them. It seems that most of the time they are sacrificing to the God's as a way of repenting for the actions they have done. Only in this instance are the greatest sacrifices to the God's made it seems.
The mortal's sacrifices seem to do little in the scheme of things as all communities are tied up in the works of Gods with little mercy shown upon any who worship. I believe regardless of mortal's actions, their will always be retributions from the Gods no matter how great the mortal's sacrifice to the Gods may be.
Both free will and destiny are themes that are quite prevalent throughout The Odyssey. At times, it seems as if humans and even the lesser gods have no control over their actions, while at other times they appear to have the freedom to do whatever they desire.
ReplyDeleteTake Calypso for example. She keeps Odysseus on her island for years because of how much she loves him and wants to spend eternity with him (a feeling that is not mutual), but as soon as Hermes appears with the message "Zeus commands you to send him (Odysseus) off with all good speed" (130. 126), she has no choice but to release Odysseus. Calypso is a goddess that is able to do what she pleases when she pleases, unless those actions are outweighed by the desires of Zeus.
Even the more powerful gods, such as Athena and Poseidon, tend to ask for Zeus' permission before carrying out their own desires. Poseidon once says to Zeus, "I'd like to avenge myself at once, as you advise, but I've always feared your wrath and shied away," when asking Zeus's permission to punish the Phaeacians for sailing Odysseus home. It is only with Zeus' approval that Poseidon (arguably the second most powerful god) is allowed to carry out his own desires.
It would seem as if Zeus has the most free will out of any character in The Odyssey. His will affects the actions and destinies of the rest of the gods and of men especially. Countless times Zeus has been praised for "bringing" good fortune as well as destruction. The humans in Ancient Greece don't seem to really have any sort of free will. It is always the actions of some god or goddess shaping their future. Or maybe this is just a way of shirking responsibility for their actions.
In the Odyssey, we often find scenarios that have us wondering whether it is the Gods who have soul control of humans or if the mortal beings have control of their own souls. Of course this topic has two sides and is hard to see what the actual case is. As discussed in class, I said that it is arguable that both situations happen in the Odyssey.
ReplyDeleteUsing Telemachus as an example at the start of the story, he is aided by the Goddess Athena who tells him exactly what to do in order to find his father after his misadventure (1.87). On the other hand, Odysseus uses his “free will” and decides that it is ok to spend one year with Circe the witch Goddess as her lover (10.245). These examples, at least to me, show that both sides of the spectrum take place in the Odyssey.
I like what Patrick Stone said about the definition of Agency, which is “the capacity of an entity to cause events, as in they can act with their free will and intent to carve out their own destiny.” Odysseus does exhibit behaviors of free will by asking Aeolus, ruler of the winds for help in his quest and procure the bag of winds (10.230). Never is there any hint that the Gods on Mount Olympus had planned for him to obtain the bag of winds. Poseidon notices that Odysseus eventually comes close to arriving in Ithaca and is angered by his progress. After asking Zeus, he gains permission to punish Odysseus’ helpers, the Phaeacians (13.291). To me, this reveals the protagonists free will was something unpredicted by the Gods.
In conclusion I feel that Free Will or Agency is what drives this journey to the far reaches of the world because it is their intent to accomplish what they wish to complete. If the book were based on the Gods’ abilities to control the fates of humanity, it would be less thrilling knowing their fates were already determined and the reader would just have to wait to see what happens. Free will is more enticing to me and what I believe is the stronger case.
It is true that throughout The Odyssey the idea of agency is discussed constantly and brings about a lot of questions. What we all want to know is whether or not the gods make the mortals destiny or if the mortals do themselves? The gods in this book are very complicated and mysterious characters and at times it seems like they do control the destiny of the human beings yet at other times it feels as if the human’s choices largely affect the way the gods choose to treat them. Another thing that I important and want to discuss is the way that certain gods seem to control other god’s destiny as well, which is very interesting.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this book I initially felt as if the gods had complete control over everything that happened to the mortals but the line when Zeus says “Ah how shameless – the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (78.37-40) says otherwise. This was the first moment that I began to think that the human’s lives weren’t just a ticking bomb the and the god’s decided when they wanted to let it explode. The thing that I found interesting about this line was it was one of the only times Zeus talks about the destiny of the humans. Almost every other reference in the book the mortals are discussing their own destiny. I think that it is possibly that the mortals don’t want to believe that they have anything to do with their own destiny because then when horrible things happened to them they would only have themselves to blame. It almost seems as if they want someone to blame for the misfortune.
Whether it been good or bad, the human beings, at certain times in the book, seem to place so much emphasis on the fact that the god’s choose their destiny. When Penelope states “Zeus has torn away my joy”(384.308) when she is referring to Odysseus being away, she is putting on the blame on the god and none on Zeus when she has no idea where he is or what he’s been doing the whole time he’s been gone. For all she knew Odysseus may have been away by choice and while he was with the god Circe he technically was for 7 years. I thought this was a good example of blaming the gods to avoid blaming a loved one because it may be easier then coming to terms with reality.
On the other hand, many human beings seem to think that everything that they have is because of the god’s, even the best things. For example when Odysseus says “I loved them all-god planted that love inside of me” (308.259) he is even giving the god’s the credit for the great feelings of love inside of him and taking none of that credit for himself. I thought it was interesting to see that he was crediting them with even his emotions because emotions are just a feeling and have nothing to do with agency in the long run.
The last thing that really caught my attention on the “agency” subject of the book was the fact that gods seem to be able to control other gods. When Calypso says ”it was Zeus who made me come, no choice of mine”(155.111) she is explaining how she really had no choice in the matter. If it was up to her Odysseus would still be held captive with her, yet Zeus chose another destiny for her and him and she had to follow that destiny. The power of Zeus is shown so clearly here and the fact that he can even control the destiny of other god’s proves that he is the god of all gods and that the reason the mortals fear him so much is that they know if the do something to upset him this could make a bad destiny for them.
In reference to the Odyssey I believe that mortals do have agency and they can make their own decisions. In my perspective I think that the humans are merely pawns that the gods play with. They seem to tinker with the destiny of others but in general in seem like they don’t honestly care about the destiny of others unless they have been wronged by a person and want revenge, or have been made an offering and asked to grant something someone else wants done. For example, Poseidon never seems to give two hoots about what Odysseus is doing until he blinds his son the Cyclops. From then on though he chooses to be involved in the destiny of Odysseus, but only in an attempt to make his life hard no to actually influence his destiny. In the same respect Zeus dose not care about what Athena does either, even though she is a god, until she asks him for something and praises him. It seems that mortals can make their own choices pretty freely; the only thing that changes these choices is the influence of gods, not the command of gods. Nausicaa is only influenced by Athena at (6.27) to go wash the clothes. Athea never says “go wash the clothes now!” she merely plants the idea into Nausicaa’s head and encourages he to do it. In all reality she could have said no. I believe I tend to think this way because a god is only ever really brought up to explain something, such as when Odysseus says “Hear me, lord, whoever you are, I’ve come to you, the answer all my prayers”(5.491) This is when he wants to know how he ended up on an island and he has no other explanation so it must be some god. He doesn’t even know which one he is praying to or for what. “The gods” seem to be the cop out answer of why anything that has happened actually happened such as, why the suitors are after Penelope and why they were successful in war with Troy. I guess to me the gods are actually in charge because of their power to effect huge things like the ocean and the winds, but they don’t actually take charge until they see it is needed.
ReplyDeleteKaitlyn Smith
ReplyDeleteWhen reading the Odyssey, I can’t help but think that the mortals have no control over how their lives are playing out. When it comes to all of the major decisions that are made in each person’s life, the gods have complete control over what happens, even if the mortals sometimes seem to be allowed to make the decisions. I do think that the mortals have control of small simple things that are a part of their everyday lives; however, anything that deals with their destiny as a person is solely decided by the gods.
For example, there are several prophecies given by gods throughout the book that are proven to be true later. In Book 9, the Cyclops responds to Odysseus by saying, “Oh no, no—that prophecy years ago…it all comes back with a vengeance now...All this, he warned me, would come to pass someday—that I’d be blinded here at the hands of one Odysseus,” (9.564-565, 568-569). Before this, he was stabbed in the eye by Odysseus, fulfilling the prophecy. This goes to show that the gods control every mortal’s life, even sons of gods, since the Cyclops is Poseidon’s son. Another prophecy is given to Telemachus from the goddess Helen when he about to leave Sparta to head home to Ithaca. She saw the eagle swoop down and snatch the goose up for dinner and prophesizes, “Odysseus will descend on his house and take revenge—unless he’s home already, sowing seeds of ruin for that whole crowd of suitors!” (15.197-199). While this exact event has not occurred yet, we know that Odysseus is, in fact, already home and plotting against the suitors to have revenge on them. Thus far, the prophecies that have been given by the gods have been proven to be true; therefore, there should be no difference with the one Helen gives to Telemachus.
Athena plays a major role in several mortal’s lives throughout the book and continues to guide them down the paths that the gods intend them to be on. For example, Athena presents the idea of leaving Ithaca to Telemachus by saying, “For you I have some good advice, if only you will accept it. Fit out a ship with twenty oars, the best in sight, sail in quest if news of your long-lost father,” (1.320-324). She goes on by telling him exactly what he should do throughout this journey he will go on, showing that he had no other destiny but the one the gods had designed for him. Penelope is also visited by Athena in a dream and is comforted with her saying, “Your son will still come home—it is decreed. He’s never wronged the gods in any way,” (4.908-909). This shows that the gods control the fate of Telemachus, and if he were to wrong the gods, that he would be punished for doing so.
Through these examples, I strongly believe that the gods control the fate of the mortals. They have the ability to alter their lives based on personal experiences and preferences amongst them. Zeus seems to have the upper hand when it comes to the fate of the mortals; however, all gods play a part in what decisions are made. While the mortals can control the smaller aspects of their lives, their destiny resides with the gods.
Although, as noted, Odysseus is an easy target in the text, the issue of agency can be examined from the viewpoint of several of the characters. One of the most interesting characters to examine on this issue, in my opinion, is Poseidon. He is the brother of Zeus, son of Cronus; his brother is called the king of the gods, and seems to command the rest of the gods to a great extent. While he is frequently portrayed as having nearly as much power over storms and tempests as does Zeus (5.321-326), and uses this power to its utmost as often as he can, he also speaks of fate and destiny, especially in regard to Odysseus. And yet, he rails against this fated ending for Odysseus' travels; this begs the question: Why does he talk of and complain about fate and destiny, while at the same time trying to work against it? Does this mean that he is not fettered by Odysseus' fate? Or does this mean instead that he is merely rattling the "cage," struggling to take command of his own agency? Do the gods decide fate?
ReplyDeleteTo address the first question, I refer to 5.318-320: (Poseidon speaking of Odysseus) "...He's fated to escape his noose of pain that's held him until now. Still my hopes ride high-- I'll give that man his swamping fill of trouble!" I feel like Poseidon, at this point in the text, is simply trying to get the most he can out of a situation he doesn't truly have control over. He's conceded that he knows the fate of Odysseus, yet he still has high hopes to get in every last trial he can for Odysseus.
If this is the case, then the second question might be answered for us; yes, technically he may be fettered by fate, although he can stretch out its culmination indeterminably. For evidence supporting my supposition that Poseidon, and the gods in general, are subject to fate and destiny, see 3.269-271, which states that "not even the gods can defend a man, not even one they love, that day when fate takes hold and lays him out at last." Alternatively, this may be taken to mean only that they can not interfere with a fated death; but I don't believe this nuance too much of an issue.
Thus, I feel that Poseidon, and perhaps the gods in general, is influenced by fate in that while he must heed what destiny has in store for a man and not interfere with its occurrence, yet he does have enough agency to "rattle the cage," as it were. He can put off the destiny of a man, so long as he does not interfere with its key points: Odysseus is fated to go home, and thus go home he must, but Poseidon can defer this return home by 5 years, or 10 years, or 20 years, etc.
Therefore comes my answer to the last question. It is an interesting one, hard to answer: Do the gods decide fate? In all, I don't actually think that they do. I think that they are subject to the rules of fate, but are powerful enough, being gods, to enact their own agency by way of bending the rules as far as they can get away with.
In The Odyssey, there are many times when free will or agency conflict with destiny. Many of the characters feel they do not get the chance to have free will and that Gods choose their future for them making agency nonexistent. I often find that the gods hold some control to the humans; but when the humans are given that opportunities, some humans look to the gods for help anyway. Most of the time the gods wait for the humans to come ask the gods for help on a journey or task that may come up. This means humans sometimes purposely (of their own free will) give up on their agency to the gods. The relationship turns complicated.
ReplyDeleteThe main character that runs into problems with this (aside from Odysseus) is Telemachus. Telemachus finds himself dealing with the suitors that Odysseus throws on him. In book fourteen, Telemachus states “My host—may Zeus and the other gods give you your heart’s desire for the royal welcome you have shown me here” (303.60-62). This is stating that the humans of their own free will give up their agency to the gods.
Another example doesn’t have to deal with Telemachus necessarily, but with the mortals throwing away their agency. In book thirteen, it says “The majestic king slaughtered an ox for them to Cronus’ mighty son, Zeus of the thundercloud, whose power rules the world” (287.25-37). With this in the book, they slaughtered the ox for Zeus because his power rules all and Zeus told them to do so.
It seems the gods have authorities with the humans. Since the gods are immortal they are fully divined forcing the humans to lean heavily away from their free will or agency.
Throughout The Odyssey, I think there are fewer agencies that humans have. The gods determine destiny and we can see that through chapter 13, “the Phaeacians’ island home, and waited there till the ship came sweeping in, scudding lightly along—and surging close abreast, the earthquake god with one flat stroke of his hand struck her to stone, rooted her to the ocean floor and make for open sea”(p291, 182-187). We can see that god can make humans to be stone, their destiny is decided by god. Some gods care about humans and some are not. In chapter 4, “Now our rations would all have been consumed, our crews’ stamina too, if one of the gods had not felt sorry for me, shown me mercy, Eidothea, a daughter of Proteus” (p135, 405-408). Eidothea treats them so well; I think she really cares about humans. Gods also control other gods. In chapter 13, “But now Poseidon, god of the earthquake, never once forgetting the first threats he leveled at the hero, probed almightly Zeus to learn his plans in full” ( p290, 142-144). From the previous texts, we can see that, Poseidon could not make decision by himself, he is controlled by Zeus. There are grades among gods. Mortal also can make their own decisions. In chapter 4,” how can I cross the swarming sea and reach home at last” (p136, 427). He tried to save his and his friends’ lives. He would like to ask the way and do as she said. It is decided by him.
ReplyDeleteBoth destiny and agency/free will are clearly present in the Odyssey. The relationship between gods and mortals is shown in great detail in the Odyssey and really drives the question throughout of whom or what is really in control of a persons fate. The gods in this story interact directly with the other characters in a way that shows more than just divine intervention by the gods, but more of a human based relationship. The gods are shown throughout directly conversing and interacting with the mortal characters, but there is no evidence of a time where they show control over the actions of others around them. Look at Telemachus and how his entire journey in search of his father began. Athena wanted Odysseus to return home and knew that Telemachus could help. Athena knew about what had had happened to Oddyseus, so she persuaded Telemachus to go and search. The question here is brought up as to what really was the thing that made Telemachus decide to set sail. With all of Athena's power, she still needed to interact with him to affect his decision. The decision of what to do comes down to Telemachus, but there were so many outside influences to affect his choice. The other point here is the way that Athena concealed herself to talk to Telemachus though. Although the text hints that Telemachus may have believed it was a god in disguise there is no evidence that he could have ever known. You have to ask why if athena really wanted him to believe her that she wouldn't just reveal herself. I think that what this all shows is the relationship the gods have with mortals and their actions cannot be described as divine intervention, but more of a divine persuasion. Although the gods have powers and strengths that mortals do not they are still only limited by the decisions of those around them and their own influence on those decisions.
ReplyDeleteIn The Odyssey the topic of free agency comes up quite often and is hard to ignore. I feel that because the Gods have so much persuasion over the mortals, it may seem that the mortals do not have any free will. However, there has yet to be any proof that the Gods have actually made anyone do anything. They merely just use the “power of suggestion” to plant something in the mortal’s mind, which the mortals usually act on. Besides mortals, Gods can influence other Gods as well.
ReplyDeleteIn book one Athena plants the idea of going to find Odysseus in Telemachus’ head (86.320). He had always longed to see his father again, but until she gave him the idea, he had never thought to actually go out to look for him. I feel that because Athena encouraged him, he felt like he could go out and do it for himself. This can be seen as persuasion but I do not see it as the Gods forcing fate on Telemachus. Another form of persuasion is when Athena, again, disguises herself as Dymas’ daughter, to persuade Nausicaa to go wash clothes, which in turn is how Nausicaa finds Odysseus (169.34-37). Without a little persuasion, Nausicaa probably would not have gone to wash clothes and therefore Odysseus would never have been helped by the Phaeacians. This could be taken as Odysseus’ fate was in Athena’s hands, but I still see it as Nausicaa’s free will to choose to go wash her clothes was why Odysseus was found.
Finally, I feel that Poseidon is influenced by Zeus a lot because Zeus is the most powerful God. Poseidon wanted Odysseus to suffer for a long time before he could return home, but Zeus overturned that when he told Hermes to tell Calypso to let Odysseus go. Gods influencing other Gods is different than when it comes to Gods and humans, because the Gods are all so powerful in different ways. However, because Zeus is the highest God, he can make others do what he wants.
Alicia Smith
ReplyDeleteWhen discussing the topic of free will within The Odyssey, it is crucial to bring up Zeus who is the supposed “thunder king whose power rules the world,” (5. 4). Zeus is the king of the gods, so one would believe that if anyone could control the fate a being, mortal or not, it would be him. However, there are several sections in the story that show how Zeus cannot be in complete control of fate, no matter whose fate it is.
Calypso was informed by Hermes that she must, by the command of Zeus, release Odysseus and allow him to return home. She stated, “But since there is no other way for another god to thwart the will of storming Zeus and make it come to nothing, let the man [Odysseus] go – if the Almighty insists, commands – “ (5. 151-153). This admission reinforces the idea that Zeus was the ruler of both immortals and mortals. Odysseus’s release was a direct consequence of Zeus’s influence on Calypso, making Odysseus’s destiny in his hands. Calypso’s fate was also tainted because she wanted Odysseus to stay, but because of Zeus’s will, she had to let him go. Even Hermes, the messenger, said that, “It was Zeus who made me come, no choice of mine,” making it clear that Calypso is not the only immortal that must abide by Zeus’s commands. This all leads to the conclusion that Zeus had the capacity to decide the fates of mortals and immortals alike. But even though Zeus is given such a high standing, he cannot control the fate of everything like his title of ‘Almighty’ entails.
Contrary to Calypso’s statement that “There is no other way for another god to thwart the will of Zeus,” (5. 152-153), Zeus could not stand up to Poseidon by himself. When Athena was coaxing him to help Odysseus in the Halls of Olympus, Zeus declared, “But come, all of us here put our heads together now, work out his journey home so Odysseus can return. Lord Poseidon, I trust, will let his anger go. How can he stand his ground against the will of all the gods at once – one god alone?” (1. 91-95). This quote expressed an idea that is contradictory to the situation of Calypso, Odysseus and Hermes. Zeus acknowledged that he could not control the fate of Poseidon by himself. According to Calypso and Hermes, Zeus could just will Poseidon into leaving Odysseus alone. However this declaration called forth all gods to band together, so presumably, Poseidon had a will that Zeus had no control over – Poseidon could Odysseus away from Ithaca no matter what Zeus’s will was. Not only does it appear that other gods (as Poseidon) could resist Zeus’s intentions, men could as well. At the beginning of the story, Zeus even stated clearly that, “From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share,” (1. 38-40). This means that he believed that men can control what happens to themselves, rather than their lives being solely dependent on the gods’ will.
If mortals and immortals potentially have their own will, why do many characters in The Odyssey claim that it is the fate of the gods (most notably Zeus) that brings all events? It probably boils down to the questions like, “Who can help me with my problems?” Gods are more powerful than men, so it is natural for a mortal to seek help from someone who is stronger than they are; they asked for help through their prayers. If he/she is helped, then the immortal is thanked and given sacrifices in hope that the immortal might help again if there is need. If there is no help, the mortals have a scapegoat instead of having to put the blame on oneself. This is speculative, and I need more than just a blog post to dive into this idea more specifically.
My conclusion is that there must be free will woven into The Odyssey. If Zeus is the god of all things, then he must be responsible for fate. When he could not control the decision of Poseidon, it showed that choice must exist to a certain extent.
Closure is important to any work and can often be the determining factor in whether or not we enjoy the story. There have been many instances in which I have disliked a story such as this one until the end when it all makes sense. Likewise, readers can thoroughly enjoy reading something until it turns out differently than they had hoped. In the case of The Odyssey there were three central questions that I wanted to know the answer to throughout the reading. As stated in the prompt these central questions were the reason that I kept reading. All three issues were addressed, however my reactions to the way things panned out differ a little.
ReplyDeleteMy central question was a common one. I wondered whether the suitors would get what was coming to them and more importantly whether they would be proven to be inferior to the great Odysseus in every way. This question was brought closure by the great writing of Homer without doubt. He writes “Telemachus killed the swineherd Elatus- and the cowherd cut Pisander down in blood. They bit the dust on the broad floor all as one.”(p 447 Line 280-285). This justice was something that made me want to cheer and I considered this question answered, however I was disappointed that Athena played such a large role in these final events by sending “the better part of the salvo wide”(line 287) for example and by seemingly fixing the competition in the favor of our hero. I personally believed that Odysseus in all his power would be able to win this battle on his own and truly earn a victory alongside his grown son and not seeing him take sole responsibility left a bad taste in my mouth.
Secondly, I cared a great deal whether or not Telemachus would truly grow up. This was a theme addressed in earlier blogs and because I identify with his character it was important to me that he ended the story a better man than when it started. Throughout the work we see many examples of his growth but this truly comes full circle when he steps up and fights alongside his father in the final scenes of the epic. In the final lines of the tale Odysseus tells his son that “In battle prowess we’ve excelled for ages all across the world”(p484 Line 561-562). Telemachus’’ response summed up his growth for me and I was happy to see him reunited with his father, victorious and confident as he exclaimed “now I’m fired up. Disgrace you say? I will not disgrace your line”(line 565-566).
The final question I cared about was whether or not Odysseus and his wife would reunite and decide to make things work despite the many things that had come between them. This question left me with the least amount of closure, however this was a smaller issue than any of my other questions for me therefore I was fine with the fact that things were left unsaid about his many transgressions. Homer does a good job of giving hope for the future and sweeping things under the rug in the end when Penelope says “if the will really grant a happier old age , there’s hope we will escape our trials at last.”(p465 line 327-328).
In conclusion, I was left very satisfied after the epic was finished despite the continued theme of the gods and specifically Athena playing too large a role in the life of the characters.
When it comes to the Odyssey, the idea of being controlled either by a god or by another human is very prominent. We can obviously see that Odysseus gets help constantly by gods such as Athena but what about some of the other characters in the book? When we look at Telemachus, we can see that Athena help him as well in his journey to find his father. She tells him "For you I have some good advice, if only you will accept it. Fit out a ship with twenty oars, the best in sight, sail in quest of your long-lost father." (1.320-323). Athena also keeps a very close on a Telemachus during the journey, making sure that he listens to her and not to the other Gods who may be trying to turn Telemachus back to Ithaca and to give up. He ends up listening to Athena and getting men together to go out in search of his long-lost father Odysseus creating half of the novel. If Telemachus did not listen to Athena he probably would have stayed with his mother and sooner or later become very angry at all of the suiters who were in the house trying to romance his mother creating a whole new story line for us to read.
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