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This question of free will versus destiny is one that many people continue to ask today - though perhaps with different terminology and a different purpose - and the ensuing discussion often ends up arriving nowhere, caught up in a cycle that can be difficult to detangle. These discussions are probably worth having, but for the sake of this discussion space, I'd like you to reflect on these topics only as they pertain to The Odyssey. To what extent do the gods control the destiny of human beings? To what extent (if at all) do human beings control their own destiny? To what extent do gods control the destiny of other gods (begging the question of who, if anyone, is actually in charge of things)?
Certainly Odysseus is an easy target in this discussion since his interaction with the gods is often painfully apparent throughout the text. But I'd like you to set Odysseus aside and instead focus on another human character, commenting on that person's relationship and interaction with the gods, being careful to note specific references to personal agency, divine intervention, and the like. Make special note of references that might seem to contradict one another, offering a theory about how the two can co-exist peacefully in the text. In the end, what observations and conclusions (if any) can we as readers draw about the intersection of humanity and divinity in The Odyssey?
Remember: this post MUST include pertinent book and line references, and must be published by 9 a.m. on Tuesday, September 14.
In The Odyssey, it is often difficult to tell who is to blame for the events that occur. Are the gods in control or do the mortals choose their own destinies? To comment on the subject of free will versus destiny, I would like to highlight the relationship between Athena and Penelope.
ReplyDeleteAt several points in time, it feels like Athena uses her power to influence Penelope’s behaviors and appearance. For example, at one point, Athena “inspires” Penelope to speak out to her suitors (XVIII, lines 181-193). Furthermore, Athena uses her godly powers to make Penelope look more appealing and beautiful to the suitors (XVIII, lines 212-226). Although it is impossible to proclaim that Penelope completely lacks free will, it feels as though Athena holds the power in these passages and that she is using Penelope as a pawn in order to accomplish her work.
Conversely, in other passages, it appears as though Athena does not have complete control over Penelope. For instance, when Athena approaches Penelope, in order to comfort her about Telemachus’ leaving, Penelope still questions the validity of Athena’s words (IV, lines 934-938). I feel that since Penelope questioned the goddess, she displayed a form free will. Her fears were not completely quelled, and I think that if Athena was an absolute controller of destinies, she could have fully dissipated Penelope’s worries. Instead, Penelope shows individuality and control of her own mind in this situation.
As the relationship between Athena and Penelope demonstrates, it seems the differentiation between divine intervention and free will is muddled. Perhaps the reason for this is because the two can co-exist and come into use at different and seemingly random times in order to paint a complete picture – one that suggests that even though situations may be part of destiny, individuality can control some of the factors that influence events.
The god-human relationship between Athena and Penelope is a very interesting one, but not quite as strong or unique as Athena’s relationship with Odysseus. It seems that Penelope is not fully aware of Athena’s inspirations on her and more importantly, Penelope does not understand her relationship with Athena. This relationship seems very one-sided because Penelope loses almost all of her free-will once Athena inspires her abnormal actions. When it comes to Penelope’s future and destiny, she has strong free-will to make it what she wants.
ReplyDeleteThrough the years Penelope has shown strong free-will by not choosing a new man to merry. As Odysseus left for Troy, he promised Penelope nothing and told her to re-marry once Telemechus becomes a grown man. (XVIII, 303,304) Then Penelope’s destiny changed to remain happy and to have re-married by now, but through Penelope’s free-will she chose the destiny to wait forever for Odysseus. Therefore, Penelope does not want any suitor or what they have to offer her in marriage, and yet she was inspired by Athena to show herself to the suitors in a way that makes them lust. (XVIII, 237-242) These actions and plots are caused by the will of Athena, but Penelope discourages all the suitors by faulting them for the lack of kindness shown to the beggar. This is ironic because her destiny is Odysseus and her free-will is choosing the beggar (Odysseus) over all the suitors. Overall, Penelope’s free-will exceeds the inspirations of the gods unlike many other main characters.
Amidst reading, this question has crossed my mind on more than one occasion: Are the gods in control? And I find myself marking several passages in each book where the idea of divine intervention comes into play.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though this question could be easily argued three ways. Some might say that there is too much evidence pointing towards the conclusion that the gods are, indeed, ruler over all. Others, however, may stick to the idea that the mortals have free will and may control their own destiny. And yet others may see the two as intertwined and able to go hand-in-hand.
My opinion? I am always brought back to the significant quote in Book 1 where Zeus expresses ,"Ah how shameless-the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share." (Lines 37-40) This line is often contradictory because as the book progresses, we see the gods, particularly Athena, using their power to manipulate situations (or seemingly so). For example, in Book 15, Athena sends a "stiff following wind" to send Telemachus back to Ithaca. This type of behavior is not uncommon and happens over and over again. However, is Athena ruling his (Telemachus) life or is he able to decide his own fate? We see him make many of his own decisions - a big one being to leave Ithaca in the first place and set out on a journey of his own.
I would have to argue that while she is a significant factor in his journey (as well as the journey of others), he still has power and is not completely dependent on her gifts. The way I see it, the gods and mortals work together for the betterment of life. It would be impossible to say that the gods don't play a factor but, on the other hand, the mortals do as well. So, in my mind, the two co-exist.
I am willing to hear the other sides because I feel there is justification in each opinion. And with enough evidence, I may just be persuaded.
I think to answer the first question accurately is difficult. There have been passages in The Odyssey that confirm that gods determine destiny, but there have also been quotes that imply the gods are able to manipulate the mortals whenever they please. The second page of the first book claims that the mortals are “shameless” for blaming the gods for their pain, as the mortals are the ones who compile it (I. 37-40), yet as the novel continues there are several mentions of the gods “brooding [with] revenge” and having only “superhuman power”(VIII. 310, VIII 584). It seems from Homer’s perspective that the gods assume a myriad of roles, choosing to employ whichever they find fit in particular circumstances. The only moments readers see the characters have “free-will” is in situations where we are able to enter Odysseus’s thoughts like the time when he was passing by Scylla and decided on his own to suit up in armor against the wishes of Circe.
ReplyDeleteThe particular character I want to focus on is Telemachus. He seems to be very much in the control of the gods. Athena seems to eliminate his entire possible agency, which can be seen when they are first introduced and she instructs him on exactly what he must do: set sail immediately, look for news about his father, and to not come back for a year if he hears any news (I. 322-331). The translation we are reading chooses to use the word “inspired” as the way of informing the character of her “suggestions,” but the way she “suggests” to Telemachus does not leave him any room to disobey. Their relationship is special, but it is nothing similar to the relationship between Athena and Odysseus. Athena goes to Telemachus specifically for the purpose of eventually bringing Odysseus home. She says in her request to Zeus “wise Odysseus will return […] I [will go] rouse his son [to] speak his mind to all those suitors” (I. 99-107). She seems to only be using Telemachus as a way to speed things along for the eventual return of Odysseus.
Later in Book 17, Athena “lavished a marvelous splendor on the prince so the people all gazed in wonder” (66-67). This is very much divine intervention. Telemachus did not know she was going to alter his appearance, nor did he ask for it. Athena is merely using her abilities to help further her plan of action—treating Telemachus as a pawn in her game. In the end, I believe that all the interactions throughout the book have to do with the whims of the gods. They are able to control any situation they please, which they use to their advantage although revenge, to me, hardly seems like a respectable motive to alter a man’s life-course. I wonder if in today’s society with our religious figures, whether or not any of this vengeful energy has transferred over from these Greek beliefs?
This idea of free will versus destiny has been one that I have marked frequently in my reading; it’s certainly a concept that I struggle to wrap my head around!
ReplyDeleteAt this point in “The Odyssey”, I feel as though the gods control destiny based on human’s actions, or, in other words, that destiny is a combination of both free will and control from the gods. I suppose this idea may sound a bit contradictory, but Eumaeus reflects it perfectly. When Odysseus first comes to Eumaeus disguised as a beggar, Eumaeus continually references his feelings that a good host will be praised by the gods, especially when he says, “Trust me, the blessed gods have no love for crime. They honor justice, honor the decent acts of men” (XIV.96). Here, Eumaeus reveals his god-fearing personality and implies that he tries to live a good, honest life so that the gods will revere him.
Although I feel as though it's probably a combination of free will and divine control that makes the world go 'round, “The Odyssey” itself seems especially laden with references to only the gods controlling destiny, evident in such statements as “that is the gods' work, spinning threads of death through the lives of mortal men” (VIII.649) and “…a god will make it hard for you” (XI.113). Although it's difficult to draw conclusions about gods and humanity since we are never explicitly told which party is "in charge", one assumption I feel I can make is that divinity is in control of humanity only if there are mortals to interact with, which implies, at the very least, that both deities and humans do in fact influence each other in some form or another!
This concept or theme of a god's will versus destiny of a "mortal" is present many different times in every chapter, and also one of the symbols I marked often while reading. It seems to be almost impossible to say one over the other, as in the readings it is very inconsistent and contradictory to which actually has more power or authority to make those decisions. It is clear that Zeus and Poseidon are the gods most in charge, and that the other lower gods fear interfering in any person’s life or events that they claim over, or that is their will to have it a certain way, like with Poseidon and Odysseus. One of the most confusing examples that plays part into the god’s will but also into reaching a destiny outside the gods, is when Odysseus finally get a ride home from the Phaeacian crew, finally escaping Poseidon’s wishes for him to have Odysseus forever punished (IX, 290).
ReplyDeleteAs said by the numerous “seers” and prophecies that Odysseus would face a long treacherous journey home as part of his own destiny, but as thought it looks like fate trumped the gods, the fact is that things probably wouldn’t have gotten started rolling in Odysseus’ favor had it not been for the intervening of Athena. That brings back the question of what are the roles or hierarchy of the gods that now Athena is overruling Poseidon’s wishes and helping Odysseus finally get home. The instances of the different omens, like the eagle, and other birds, and the sneeze can be evidence for fate, whereas a god’s intervention like Athena is more direct contact not the subtleties of omens. Of the numerous mentions of the conflict of gods vs. fate just in the few chapters assigned for today, one of the most revealing quotes implies that Zeus knows all; the will of the gods and the intended fate of the mortal men, so it would seem as if almost the action of the gods interference was actually part of fulfilling a person’s fate (XX 412). The argument is a very circular one, and nearly impossible to prove which has more saliency in the world of Odysseus, and although they believe most everything is controlled by the gods, I personally believe that fate is more overarching and actually encompasses the god’s will into it.
Throughout “The Odyssey” we find these constant questions of who really controls the world. If the Gods really control it, why do they have to come down and convince the mortals to do certain things? Or is this the way that they do control destiny? But, if that is true, then why do the gods blame the mortals for some outcomes? This is a question that is constant for the reader, as well as the characters in the text I think.
ReplyDeleteI think this question can be argued either way, which makes it such a great literary topic. Throughout the text we will constantly see examples that can help to argue both sides of the issues because fate is so huge in their society. It is also interesting that fate is such a big part of their society considering its unclear of where it is coming from.
Another question that comes up with this topic that is so interesting is that of which god holds the most power? We see a constant struggle Poseidon and what he wants for Odysseus versus the others. In book 5, lines 115-119, “Outrageous!...until now,” we see this type of struggle. Poseidon even refers to it as fate, but if it is fate than why did Poseidon ever think that he could change it. I think that it may be a mixture of all of these things. Are the mortals just toys for the gods and the gods only come into play with their fate when they see fit? I think this may be a fair statement because we see the gods disagreeing too which means that there cannot be one specific fate. I think their fate and destiny is determined by an intermingling of decisions in between gods and the humans themselves
I believe that the Gods tinker with the humans as they please. Certainly some seem more invested in certain humans' future than others. One goddess that stands out is Athena. She finds Odysseus very endearing and not only plays a part in his fate, but also inspires other characters to do her bidding.
ReplyDeleteOne character that she often influences is Telemachus. In book one "Athena Inspires the Prince," Athena convinces Telemachus that it is time for him to embrace his destiny as his father's son. She appears to him as a lord from far away (I.123) and convinces him that Odysseus lives. Then she and Telemachus take a journey to see if they can hear any news about Odysseus. This action by a Goddess sets motion to the Odyssey.
Athena and Telemachus find out from Nestor that Menelaus may know of Odysseus's fate. Athena discovers the truth and maneuvers Odysseus' way home while Telemachus makes friends and meets new people.
Athena appears to Telemachus in her true form while he is sleeping (15.10-48) and tells him it's time to head home. She plans on having Telemachus help his father fight off the suitors.
Even when she doesn't directly appear to Telemachus, she may inspire him, steeling his nerves and guiding his actions, changing his appearances, and swaying the opinions of bystanders.
Although Athena doesn't have complete control over Telemachus, she gets what she wants out of him. I believe that the gods control as much as they want to. Sometimes they may be content to sit back and watch the humans mess up their own lives.
In the Odyssey there is a back forth about who has control over a character. Does the character have agency or are the gods in charge of what happens to this character or do other characters control their life. Penelope is in a society that is controlled by men. When Penelope was crying, her son, Telemachus, sends her to her room to work on her loom. Penelope is surprised by this command from her son but she follows his command any way (I: 392-420). The suitors want her to go back to her fathers house to live (I: 312-320) However, she has agency in this instant because she never ends up leaving her house but she does not have the power to kick them out of her house. They do not leave till Odysseus comes back home. Again at the beginning of the tale Penelope had agency. She tells the suitors she is making a loom and when she is done she will pick a husband; however, every night she unties everything she has done that day. When the suitors find out they take away her agency (II: 90-110). When it comes to the gods interfering with Penelope’s life Athena forces her to sleep and put into a better mood. She has no control of the matter (XVIII: 180-210). Whenever Penelope has agency it is taken away from her and she is a main character with no control of her own life.
ReplyDeleteIn the Odyssey there is the constant question of free will versus destiny, or a god-controlled outcome. I think the most prominent of this is the relationship between Odysseus and the gods but to focus on someone other than Odysseus the next most prominent example that comes to my mind is, as a couple of others have said, Penelope and Athena. Actually, I think another area that would be worth focusing on would be that of the free will of the other gods under Zeus. We see a couple of times where, for example, Athena and Poseidon say they didn’t do something or ask permission before doing something to Odysseus for fear of Zeus’s wrath, but for all intents and purposes of this particular blog, focusing on a mortal-god relationship, I will go for the one of that between Penelope and Athena.
ReplyDeleteEven though it is not near as interesting as the relationship between Odysseus and Athena, the one between Penelope and Athena, I think, could be considered just as important. I completely agree with Matt when he says that up until Athena inspires Penelope’s abnormal behavior she seems to have a complete free-will to do as she wants and to wait as long as she wants for Odysseus despite him having told her when he left, “So I cannot tell if he gods will sail me home again or I’ll go down out there, on the fields of Troy, but all things must rest in your control….But once you see the beard on the boy’s cheek, you wed the man you like, and leave your house behind” (XVIII.297-304). I believe that it is Penelope’s own free will that she chooses not to remarry for those twenty years despite everyone telling her that her husband is dead and never coming back. So even though Athena does not want to re-marry and still hopes for her husband’s return, Athena makes Penelope act in a way that makes the suitors lust for her, “The radiant woman, once she reached her suitors, drawing her glistening veil across her cheeks….The suitors’ knees went slack, their hearts dissolved in lust—all of them lifted prayers to lie beside her, share her bed” (XVIII.237-242).
I think someone said before that destiny and free- will were not mutually exclusive. I think I agree. I believe that the gods interfere and meddle where they want to and when something will suit them to have something go a certain or specific way but I also think, to a certain extent that the characters in the Odyssey do have free will to do as they please, it’s just that the gods will interfere if something is not going their way.
Free will versus destiny is a big controversy in The Odyssey. It appears to me that the gods can control what goes on when they want to, such as when Athena disguises Odysseus (book XIV) or when Zeus keeps Odysseus and his men at sea for 10 or so years. However, there are moments in the book when the gods do NOT have control over what happens. When Odysseus and his men land on the island of Helios, Helios does not find out about Odysseus's men killing his cattle until he is told by a messenger (XII;282-283). He couldn't control the destiny of his own cattle, and he's a god.He then seeks revenge on the men but has to seek permission from Zeus. Poseidon also has to seek permission from Zeus to seek revenge on the people of Phaeacia, who constantly pray to and worship him, when they take Odysseus home without him knowing (XIII;290-291). He does nothing to stop them from taking him home nor does he ruin Odysseus's safe trip home because he did not know about it, he just punishes them afterwards after seeking permission from Zeus. Earlier in the book, Poseidon is unable to stop Odysseus and his men from blinding the Cyclops (IX;223). However, when he seeks his revenge on the men, Zeus is still wrecking their journey home with his own revenge(IX;228-229). In Book 1, Athena has to seek permission from Zeus to help to get Odysseus home. Zeus also controls the weather, which, when all of the characters travel by sea to get EVERYWHERE, shapes everyone's destiny, or at least how long their journey will take.
ReplyDeletePerhaps Zeus, the father of half the gods it seems, is the true controller of destiny? He at least gets to allow or prevent the other gods from doing things. The other gods seem to have control when they want over humans, but Zeus seems to have the most control over all of them.
In the Odyssey the Gods play an important role in many of the human’s lives. Sometimes they appear in very disguised ways and other times appear as the Gods themselves. I feel that the Gods do control most of the humans destiny’s in the Odyssey. Each God has impacted Odysseus’s life in a different way from the other throughout his journey home.
ReplyDeleteI would like to focus on Penelope who throughout the later chapters has many interactions with the gods for instance, in line 500 page 352. After hearing that the suitors have plotted her sons death Penelope is weeping in her bedroom and Athena appears and seals her eyes with sleep. Also commenting on the same passage as Amber J on page 382 lines 212-226, although I do agree with you that Athena influences Penelope’s behaviors and her appearance, I slightly disagree with your second point about Penelope being a pawn for Athena. I think that Athena used Penelope to distract the suitors to help Odysseus, not for herself. I have felt throughout this novel that a lot of Athena’s actions have been because of this major crush she has on Penelope’s husband.
Although Athena has intruded on Penelope’s life, Penelope and other humans are often heard praying to the Gods for help, making it seem like they enjoy and want the Gods coming into their lives and controlling their destiny. Overall I believe that the Gods give the humans some free will, but when it comes down to it the Gods take control and intervene on the humans lives.
I believe that the gods have a vital role in the lives of the characters in the Odyssey. I do feel that the gods have a huge role in the destiny of the character, sometimes the characters are completely controlled by the feelings of the gods, and at other times they are able to dictate their own actions.
ReplyDeleteFor example, when Athena made Penelope fall asleep and made her appear more beautiful and taller in order to attract the other suitors( 18; 214-225) Athena took full control of the destiny of Penelope. Penelope did not have free will in this situation, her actions were controlled by the goddess Athena.
Now, generally Penelope has control over her day to day actions, however, she even dreams that her suitors are killed when she speaks to Odysseus about her dream. (19:603-618). So, even though Penelope has control over the actions that she does, her future is already pre-determined by the gods.
Overall, I would say that the gods do not allow the humans to have free will. I have had great difficulty providing examples of Penelope's free will because even in the instance of Penelope's ideas for the suitors shoot the bow and arrow, the narrator of the story notes that the goddess Athena inspired Penelope (20; 1-2).
Although, Penelope does not demonstrate free will, she does at time demonstrate agency. For example, there were many times throughout these chapters were Penelope was furious that the suitors had treated the guest so poorly. She appeared as if she was yelling at these suitors furiously. Another example was when Penelope was weaving in the beginning of the story to postpone choosing a suitor. This probably meant that Penelope had some sort of agency, or some way of having an affect on the events that would follow. The characters ability to have agency but at the same time have her fait controlled by the gods represents the gods overall control over the humans, but the humans daily contribution to their own fate.
In The Odyssey the Gods are the ones who hold the most control in the destiny of human beings. However, I feel that human beings can also control their own destiny to a certain extent. In the very beginning of The Odyssey Zeus says to the other gods, "Ah-how shameless --the way these mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways compound their pains beyond their proper share"(I.37-40). The gods are the ones who have the power to change the destiny of a human being based on the actions of that human being.
ReplyDeleteThis is shown throughout The Odyssey in many different relationships, especially that of Odysseus and Poseidon. Although the other gods love Odysseus, Poseidon constantly seeks revenge on him "No, its the Earth-Shaker, Poseidon, unappeased, forever fuming against him for the Cyclops whose giant eye he blinded..."(I.81-83). The harm that Odysseus caused the Cyclops destroyed his own destiny. Unable to safely return from Troy, Odysseus battles for twenty years to make the journey back home to Ithaca. Poseidon watches over Odysseus, "But now Poseidon, god of the earthquake, saw him...I'll give that man his swamping fill of trouble!"(V.309,320). The gods only punish Odysseus when he has done something wrong, just like they do all human beings.
Over and over again we see people praising the gods with libations of wine and food. The mortals in The Odyssey do this to please the gods and to bring themselves good fortune in their own destinies. I feel that the mortals are the ones who influence the gods decisions over their destinies in life and the Gods are the ones with the power to make it happen.
It is very hard to say one way or another if the gods are in control or if it is the other way around, especially with all of the characters other than Odysseus. To even further this situation I would like to bring in the situation of Helen, daughter of Zeus, where she does not have the ability to perform a god like action, however she does something that seems non-human and drugs someone. It seems non-human to me as this is the first and only instance of drugs being used that I can recall(IV, 240). So It also brings up the question of where do you draw the line from human to god in some instances.
ReplyDeleteOther than Odysseus our most often visited human has to be Penelope. She seems to have god like abilities, especially when she is weaving the loom to stage off the suitors, at least until they caught her. Also, we see that just as Athena as the ability to manipulate Odysseus, it seems that she also has the affect on. She is told by Odysseus that she is to re-marry once Telemcaus is grown, which is showing Athena's will for her to be remarried, while at the same time planning for Odysseus's return. So in the case of Odysseus and Penelope( as a couple), I feel that each little instance is controlled by Athena. Adding to that the good nature of both their personalities are very humble, and although Odysseus does cheat(not actually said but it is obvious) I believe that these help create destiny, so this is going against the wills of the gods.
Based on how I have seen the gods interact amongst themselves and humans, I believe they are more like overgrown children than beings worth of reverence. They are spiteful, haughty, and seem to enjoy hurting or helping the humans as they please. However, while I feel the gods can deeply influence the humans, I think ultimately the characters have agency to act as they see fit.
ReplyDeleteOne character that these sorts of interactions with the gods is Telemachus. In Book I, Athena after more or less receives permission to help Odysseus return home. She hurries to Ithaca to urge Telemachus to go find news of his father. When she first meets him, Telemachus is "sitting among the suitors, heart obsessed with grief" (I.134). He has the air of a beaten man. He feels helpless and outnumbered to the older and more respected suitors. After a pep talk with Athena however, "his spirit filled with nerve and courage/ charged with his father's memory more than ever now" (I. 368). This scene leads me to believe that Telemachus always had the bravery to act. Yet, with Athena's help, he was given the resources and encouragement he needed to do so. In this situation, I think Telemachus could have said no to the goddess, but he truly did want to do something about his father anyway.
An additional example of this is when Athena comes to Telemachus in a dream. She ells him "It's wrong...to rove so far from home...Quickly, press Menelaus...to speed you home at once" (XV.11-15). Immediately after awaking from this vision, Telemachus tells his friend Pisistratus it is time to leave to "head home at once!", despite it being before dawn. Athena makes no indication here that she is forcing Telemachus to do anything. I think that because of his deep trust and respect for her, he is willing to follow any and all of her advice.
While these are only two examples with only one character and one goddess, I think these situations reflect the larger workings of the epic. While the gods would like to believe that they are they sole puppet masters of the planet, I think that humans have a more significant free will than they give them credit for.
In The Odyssey, there are multiple examples of the divinity and displayed power of the gods. Yet in other instances, I question whether the gods really have the power to control everything or if they are each limited to a certain amount of power. Looking at the relationship between Athena and Telemachus, one would conclude that free will is nothing more than a fantasy in the minds of humans given by the gods. In the beginning of the story (I, lines 320-329) Athena comes to Telemachus and urges him to take the journey out in search of his father Odysseus. Throughout the book she guides him every step of the way. So the question is, does Telemachus actually make any decisions on his own?
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, although Athena may be persuasive with Telemachus, she first had to get permission from Zeus himself to allow Odysseus to come back home (I. lines 96-112). This shows the limited powers held by Athena. It is also interesting to note that the gods often clash when it comes to displaying their powers. While Zeus gave permission to send Odysseus back home safely, that contradicted Poseidon's will for Odysseus to never return home (V, lines 309-320).
In looking at the gods' powers and their ability to do as they please, the Phaeacian island came to mind as an example of humans who seemed to have very little agency in the text. They had always been a favored people by the gods. They aided those who stopped by their island; always giving them a place to stay and nice gifts before helping get them back to their homes. In this case, they send Odysseus back, and have no idea the repercussions that will follow. These Phaeacians have very little, if any, agency to stop “a huge mountain round about their port” (XIII.180).
ReplyDeleteAdditionally, this interaction between the gods shows their power to have free rein over the world. As Poseidon is angry with the Phaeacians, even he does not understand his true ability to do as he pleases. Zeus affirms this in saying, “The power is always yours. Do what you like. Whatever warms your heart,” (XIII.164-165). Not only does this comment show that the gods have the power to do whatever they please, but they can do it for whatever reason. Zeus said, “Whatever warms your heart,” (XIII.165). This is completely different from saying, you are powerful, but be sure to use it wisely and with good reason for your actions. Instead he says, do whatever you want, whenever, for whatever reason. This conversation stood out to me in that is makes it seem as if the humans have very little agency. It may seem at times that they are able to determine their own destinies through their actions, in reality, they have simply kept the gods happy.
I believe the Gods care about destiny and they tinker with it but do not necessarily control people to the point where they have no free will. The interaction between Gods and mortals in the Odyssey is very common and the consequences of their decisions have a tremendous effect on the mortals. We know that Athena likes Odysseus and Poseidon hates him, and Zeus is pretty much indifferent but we hear about the Gods tinkering in the lives of many other people asides from Odysseus.
ReplyDelete"[...]Oicles fathered Amphiaraus, driver of armies, whom storming Zeus and Apollo loved intensely, showering him with every form of kindness" (XV. 272-274). As we can see, certain Gods favor certain individuals, and when they like a certain person they bless him/her with good fortune, and help aid them on journeys, so they definitely have a direct influence on people.
Gods like Athena instruct Telemachus throughout the story to do certain things. While her instructions are not commands, it wouldn't make sense to not follow the orders of a God, especially if they are divine and have unearthly powers. So people like Telemachus have free will because he could just ignore Athena's instructions and not follow the path Athena set for him, but because it is wise to do so, most people will follow the instructions of Gods. Gods do not control human's free will but they tinker with fate enough that it leaves very little which is not predicted.
"Hovering over him, eyes ablaze, Athen said, 'It's wrong, Telemachus, wrong to rove so far, so long from home, leaving your own holdings unprotected-crowds in your palace so brazen they'll carve up all your wealth, devour it all, and then your journey here will come to nothing. Quickly, press Menelaus, lord of the warcry, to speed you home at once, if you want to find your irreproachable mother still inside your house" (XV. 10-18). So Athena instructs Telemachus to sail for home and even warns him later about the suitors who were planning to ambush him, "Picked men of the suitors lie in ambush, grim-set in the straits between Ithaca and rocky Same, poised to kill you before you can reach home, but I have my doubts they will" (XV. 32-35). Telemachus follows these instructions so Athena is tinkering with fate and even though Athena told him to do these things, Telemachus still has free will because he was the one who chose to follow these instructions. This is also an example of divine intervention and how Gods favor certain mortals and will help them, in this case by warning them of future dangers.
Lauren Trout
ReplyDeleteThe question of whether humans control their own destiny plays a major role in "The Odyssey". It's almost like the question of which came first the chicken or the egg? There's no perfectly correct answer. Do the Gods control all human action or do humans have some agency of their own? One could find evidence supporting both sides of the argument.
I prefer to believe a combination of fate and free will is displayed in "The Odyssey". The God's do force events to occur, but I believe people have control over their own actions when these events occur. An example of such a situation lies in Book 13 lines 160-180. In this section Zeus and Poseidon discuss how they are going to punish the Phaeacians. The two gods end up deciding to crash a Phaeacian ship and surround the islands harbor with a mountain. At this moment the Phaeacian people have no way of stopping this event from occurring. The Gods have willed it. However, the Phaeacians do have some free will in what to do when the event begins. In lines 210-220 of book 13 we find the Phaeacians offer sacrifices to Poseidon in the hope the God will grant them mercy. The people have no power in what choice the God will make, but they can control themselves.
Now with that situation there is another topic to be brought up. Is there one superior God or do they all fall upon an equal level? Zeus is always talked about as being the King of the Gods and yet his brother has the power to defy him. As Book 13 shows Poseidon holds enough power that Zeus is willing to work with him. Poseidon is able to undermine Zeus as well as the other gods on earth. I think it goes to show that the Gods walk a fine line when it comes to dealing with one another. They are a perfect example of one big family. Obviously there is a leader that everyone respects, and yet they find they put up with their annoying 2nd cousins. The Gods are forced to get along, because that is whats best for "the family". Fighting will only tear them apart and take away any powers that the Gods had.
The fate or free will of humans in "The Odyssey" is clearly intertwined with the will of the Gods. Gods have power to change the course of human life and yet humans have the ability to control their actions when said events occur.
Whether humans have free will or not is one of the oldest philosophical questions that is around. For The Odyssey, I would say the life of a human is like a twig in the current of a river. It has its own path to go down, but the gods can alter it to an extent. Humans are not pawns or puppets for a god to control. The god Hermes warned to Aegisthus not to murder Agamemnon nor court Clytemnestra, although he did both anyway (I.34-52). Furthermore, outside of The Odyssey we see in the Illiad that Cassandra/Alexandra did not return the love of Apollo. Zeus essentially proclaims that humans blame the gods for the misdeeds they themselves do (I.37-39). If the gods had complete control over humans, he could have forced her to fall in love with him. These pieces of evidence show that while humans can be tempted, persuaded, and inspired, they cannot be fully controlled.
ReplyDeleteAre the gods nothing more than high tiered humans? It seems that they have the emotional weakness of humans (anger, jealousy, pride) while the physical prowess of gods. We see with the interactions between Telemachus and Athena that she has a broad range of physical abilities that a normal human could never do. While Athena does not goad Telemachus out of selfishness, she does show the power a god has over humans. Just as she has done with Odysseus at Troy, Athena shows favoritism towards Telemachus among other humans. It is hinted that Telemachus is rather timid before our story begins , as Athena says she will inspire him to a braver pitch, to be a bolder youth. She then says she will "send him" to Sparta and Pylos, implying he has no choice in the matter (or that she is not conceiving the possible fact that he will deny her commands)(I.105-110).
The gods guiding humans is equivalent to a human guiding a toddler. Sometimes you get a toddler that will refute what you say, and it is met with punishment.
I think the gods basically tinker with destiny. I think they play with humans like pawns but they can't actually change fate. They affect with the lives of humans as much as they desire, but they can't change the big picture. Poseidon strikes at Odysseus as much as often, but he doesn't stop him completely.
ReplyDeleteThe best example of the gods interfering with humans and destiny is in the first book of the Odyssey entitled "Athena inspires the prince." Telemachus and Athena have a very interesting relationship. She is cutting his path through the journey of finding his father. She is doing all she can to encourage his adventure. Athena wants Odysseus to complete his journey home, that in itself is the gods attempting to control fate. However she intervenes in Telemachus life to change Odysseus's destiny. In book 2 starting at line 422 Athena disguises herself and roams the town to assemble a ship and crew for Telemachus's journey. I think this is showing that the gods can not control destiny because why would Athena go through this much trouble if she could just decide the outcome. In book 2 line 446 Athena is leading the way and Telemachus "followed in her footsteps. She is literally leading every step of the way. She is doing everything and he is just following her; he's basically just going through the motions.
When they reach King Nestor, Athena has to motivate Telemachus every step of the way again. Again in book 3, line 33 "And Pallas Athena sped away in the lead as he followed in her footsteps," She is literally holding his hand through this journey.
In book 3 line 260, Athena is enraged at Telemachus and line 263: " It's light work for a willing god to save a mortal even half the world away. ... But the great leveler, Death: not even the gods can defend a man, not even one they love, that day when fate takes hold and lays him out at last." I think this quote pretty much summarizes my point. The gods can effect humans in many ways, but fate is the overall law of the land.
While reading The Odyssey, I believe that the gods can determine destiny; however, only to a certain extent. First off, I chose to focus on Telemachus. His journey was not only literal, but it was also a journey of growth. Telemachus is, no doubt, influenced by Athena. Athena goes to Zeus for approval of an arrangement to bring Odysseus home and set Telemachus to sea. He is inspired to go find news of his father, but he is also told “you'll lack neither courage nor sense from this day on, not if your father's spirit courses through your veins (II. 302-304). Close to the end of the book Telemachus “strode down through the farm in quick, firm strides, brooding death for the suitors” (XVII. 30). Athena acted as Telemachus’s teacher, and has made him a man ready to reunite with his father and revenge the suitors. Athena has “lavished a marvelous splendor” on him, and he has now grown into a strong character, no longer the grief-stricken little boy.
ReplyDeleteSometimes we see the gods using humans like “pawns” in which they can “maneuver, move, manipulate, and play with”, but I don’t believe the gods can control what the final, deciding factor of the human is. Zeus states, “Ah how shameless—the way the mortals blame the gods. From us alone, they say, come all their miseries, yes, but they themselves, with their own reckless ways, compound their pains beyond their proper share” (I. 37-40). What the humans finally decide is their fate, which I don’t think the gods can toy with. I believe the gods sit back and watch, then choose to intervene, but they only can intervene up to the decisions and actions of the humans, which, in the end, is fate. The gods can inspire, guide, and thwart, but in the end the human has the free will to decide whether or not to go along with the god(s).
The humans will receive the help of the god(s) if they humans listen, sacrifice, and pray to the god(s) “Now, how on earth could I forget Odysseus? Great Odysseus who excels all men in wisdom, excels in offerings too, he gives the immortal gods who rule the vaulting skies?”(I. 77-80), yet they will be cursed if not, and that extent(that a human is cursed) seems to be dependent on the god who was “wronged”, “No, it’s the Earth-Shaker, Poseidon, unappeased, forever fuming against him for the Cyclops whose giant eye he blinded”(I.80-83). Odysseus had been “blessed” for being such a grand human, yet since he did not sacrifice to Poseidon, Poseidon thwarted his journey the best he could. If the gods were in all control of destiny, why wouldn’t Poseidon have tortured Odysseus, and THEN finally killed him as we were on the edge of our seats? It would have been pleasure for him to have killed Odysseus, but this leads to how Zeus, “who marshals the thunderheads” (I. 76), is in control of the other gods, and he gives other gods the notion to intervene, and allows it only enough as he sees fit.
The God's in the Odyessey use the humans as pawns in their games. They move them around to suit their will. When Odyesseus lands on his homeland, Athena tells him that he must not tell his wife that he is home. He is only allowed to tell his son. Bk 13 line382, Athena says he must put his wife to the test. He has to find out if he can trust her. Then is bk 17, Athena makes Penelope want to spend time with her suitors even though he hates them. In line 501 she even enhances he beauty so she will drive them wild with lust. She has Odyesseus test them to see which ones are worthy of being saved but on line 399 is says that she was not going to save any of them anyway. She is stretching out her time with him before he reunites with his wife. (Like 20 years is not enough.)
ReplyDeleteThe question of whether the gods are in control or humans control their own destiny is certainly an open-ended one in The Odyssey. Humans almost always seem to attribute their circumstances to the gods. For example, when a character experiences good fortune, others comment that they must be loved by the gods, and when a character experiences hardship, he or she is often thought to be cursed by the gods. However, at least in the mind of Zeus, humans should not assume that the gods are the cause of all their troubles, as he says, "Ah how shameless-the way these mortals blame the gods...but they themselves...compound their pains beyond their proper share" (I. 37-40). This comment shows a big discrepancy between the views of most mortals and the views of the gods.
ReplyDeleteOne character in the Odyssey who has in ongoing relationship with the gods, and in particular Athena, is Telemachus. When he first meets her, she is in disguise and Telemachus thinks she is just a guest at his home. He welcomes her into his house and offers to give her supper and anything else she needs (I. 144-146). As far as I can tell, Telemachus was acting under his own agency here; he was not influenced by the gods to accept Athena so warmly, especially since he didn't even know it was her. Because he treats her so kindly all of his own choice, Athena continues to find favor with Telemachus and is willing to help him and his family.
From this point on, Athena intervenes several times to help Telemachus. She changes his appearance by "lavishing a marvelous splendor" on him (II. 12), she disguises herself as Telemachus to gather a crew for his journey (II. 422-427), gives him confidence to speak to Nestor (III. 15-22), and gives him instructions several times throughout his journey, which he always follows. In all of these situations, it seems that Telemachus' success is more due to Athena's help than his own agency.
Based on Zeus's comment above, as well as Athena's relationship with Telemachus, it seems to me that while mortals may have some agency, the gods are ready and willing to judge mortals for their actions. If, like Telemachus, a mortal chooses to be respectful and thankful to the gods, they will usually intervene in a positive way. However, if like Aegisthus, a mortal has a hardened heart and chooses to go against the will of the gods (I. 41-52), the gods will bring great misfortune upon him or her. This raises the question: if mortals act of their own agency, but are still subject to the judgment of the gods for all of their actions, do they really have agency at all? In my opinion they do, but the gods are definitely a huge factor in the lives of mortals, often more so than the mortals themselves.
For me, 'destiny' and 'fate' are essentially interchangeable - a pre-determined path that one's life is inevitably going to take. Pre-determined by whom is another question, but let's not even try to get into that in these 300 words. I cannot help but notice, however, that this concept of every person having a set-in-stone fate seems to be the exact opposite of how the gods conduct business! The gods in the Odyssey seem to change people's paths on a whim - if they're feeling pouty about something, they'll just decide on the spur of the moment to kill an entire ship's crew (a la Poseidon, who is upset with Odysseus, and punishes him and his entire crew, as Tiresias tells Odysseus on pages 252-253 ).
ReplyDeleteIt seems that, rather than the gods ensuring the humans are fulfilling their destinies, the gods change their minds and actions quite frequently. The gods and goddesses are very reactive, often not implementing anything - positive or negative - until the humans act (or rub one of the gods the wrong way). There is an example of this in book 12, from about line 402, when the Sun realises Eurylochus and the crew slaughtered the Cattle of the Sun. He tells Zeus to punish them, who responds by simply killing them all! This obviously was not a premeditated path for those crew members; their untimely demise was the result of a snap decision by Zeus.
Similarly, we have seen evidence of the humans forging their own paths, without any intervention from the gods. For instance, in book 2 (lines 113-120), Penelope is in complete control of her decisions - she is not ready to marry any of her suitors, and cunningly postpones her marriage by unravelling her weaving every night. The gods are not involved at all in this act - it is Penelope alone who holds that power.
While its clear that gods do play a large role in the mortals lives, they do not choose mortals everyday decisions and actions, only really helping or hindering them. The Gods can give suggestions, as Athena does on several occasions, for Penelope, Telemachus, and Alcinous’s daughter Nausicaa (VI, 15-24). As well as giving suggested courses of action, Athena has the power to chance not only her appearance, but the appearances of others as well, helping Odysseus to appear as a poor beggar in Ithaca to take the suitors by surprise (XIII, 454-460), as well as Telemachus, she “lavished a marvelous splendor on the prince so the people gazed in wonder as he came around” (XVII, 66-67). Other Gods who show up only once or twice throughout the book, but yet have a large impact include Hermes, who delivered the message to Calypso from Zeus to let Odysseus return home and she complies (V, 111-189). Aeolus, who is a mortal, is the keeper of the winds, tried to help by binding the winds except the west wind in a sack, to blow Odysseus and his crew back to Ithaca (X,22-30), that is until Odysseus’s crew becomes jealous and opens the bag of winds, landing them back with Aeolia, who refuses to help him, sure that the Gods are set against him . Ino, the sea nymph, who gave Odysseus her scarf when he was caught in rough waters to help protect him from the jagged shoreline, helping to save his life (V, 372-386). The Gods also can also negatively affect the lives of mortals, such as when Poseidon, the earthquake god or god of the sea, can control the sea, and crashes Odysseus’s ship, causing his 10 year delay from returning home. Even though Poseidon vowed to never let Odysseus see home again, he eventually made it there. So while the actions of these Gods have a big toll on characters in The Odyssey, I don't believe they control the mortals destiny.
ReplyDeleteIt is my opinion that in the Odyssey and Greek mythology mortal man and the world they live in is nothing more then a game for the gods. Even when there is a credible argument for free will, the mortal is at the will of the gods. For example when Poseidon torments Odysseus, but is not able to kill him( v, 400-470) its not Odysseus that saves him self. It is Athena inspiring him to fight for life. I view the process of inspiring more as a brief possession of body and mind and the mortal looses control. In this case its not man on god, its god on god battle for the life of Odysseus. Another example of this is when telemachus gives his speech to the suitors about leaving his house. Athena tells him, "some of the words you'll find within yourself, the rest some power will inspire you to say." This is not Telemachus suddenly becoming bold and strong, but Athena controlling his words. This Narrative time and time again tells the reader as well as the protagonist what is going to happen and it does exactly as predicted. As some of the other posts have said that Poseidon vowed to never let Odysseus return home but he clearly fails. I do not view this as a mortal triumphantly defeating a god and showing free will. In his journey Odysseus was moved across the board like a pawn in a game of chess.
ReplyDeleteI believe that the gods do control the mortals destiny. Time and time again it has shown throughout the book that the gods are the ones who are in control; if someone goes against the gods wishes they are always struck down. In book 12 pg 281 starting on line 365 Eurylochus talks about how he wants to kill the cattle and feast even after the fact that the gods and Odysseus said not to kill Helos cattle they did anyways and the gods struck down and killed all the guilty parties.
ReplyDeleteAnother perfect example of how the gods control the mortals destiny is when Athena is talking to Telemachus about how the suitors want to kill him, but she assures him it won't happen and that the suitors will be the ones dying soon enough (book 15 lines 31-48).
Even though the gods create the mortals destiny mortals can still veer off the path on the way. Odysseus is a perfect example. He was set to sail back to his native land after battling at Troy, but he upset Posiden because he blinded Cyclops which is the gods son. Odysseus was still going to reach Ithica once more, it just took many more years than originally planned.
Scott Evenson
ReplyDeleteIn the Odessey the gods really control the characters destinies to the extent they want to. Athena more than any other god is involved in Odysseus’ life through her interactions with Telemachus and Penelope. Her words are less advice than prophecy. At some points it is hard to see whether the gods are predicting the future or controlling the future. When Telemachus is conflicted about setting sail Athena comforts him by saying that “Odysseus’ cunning has hardly given out on you” (II.312) and later says the suitors can not see their own deaths coming to “crush them all in one short day” (II.317).
Athena would continue to persuade Telemachus to set sail for as long as was necessary. As far as crushing the suitors Athena’s conspiring nature makes me think that she is directing rather than predicting. Even after Telemachus agrees to set off in search of his father Athena still drives him. The sun has just set and Athena messes with the suitors then says to Telemachus that he’s wasting time, let’s get going (II.440). The difference between wasting time and we need to be quick sneaking away suggests that Athena is even more excited than Telemachus about the adventure. Telemachus has been dealing with the suitors for three years, surely a couple of hours is not a big deal. She then leads him down to the ship instead of letting him wander there on his own.
To me Athena in particular is controlling what happens next. She constantly is giving directions disguised as suggestions and making allusions to the future. When Penelope cries about Telemachus leaving “Athena” appears and says “your son will come home, it is decreed” (IV.907) she doesn’t really know that, but she has the power to make it happen.
The concept of free will and destiny is such a sticky subject in just about every coversation and I seem to ride the fence in just about every instance. When reading through the Odyssey I've noticed both themes being used and it doesn't help my tendency to be a fence rider. In XIII.194 you see the gods taking complete control of the situation and freezing the Phaeacian ship out at sea.
ReplyDeleteThe greek gods in the Odyssey do not seem to be omniscient and so they can be caught off guard and tricked. This seems to show that mortals do have a say in what they do but, at the same time I wonder if the gods are set on something happening a certain way, is there any way to avoid that planned series of events?
I believe that in the Odyssey the only reason mortals have any choice in what they do is because the gods have overlooked their duties. When it comes down to it they are pawns of the gods who are to be moved however the gods wish.